To wonder why men hate women so much?

[YouAreNotBatman]

Violence againt women, sexual harrasment.

Controlling women bodies.

Women’s sexuality: frigid prude if you don’t want sex, slut if you.

Porn, sex ”work”.

All the MRA’s, mgtow, incels etc.

Even historically speaking they have no reason to be angry at women, women never had any power, mostly tried to accommodate to men’s demand/ wants, I think it still goes on.

Many women still tip toe the line to placate men.

What reason do they have to be so angry at women?

As a PP pointed out:

The fact you think women discussing their oppression should be tempered so as no to upset poor men says it all.

If I wanted to be kind to you I'd say substitute "men" for "patriarchy". We're not talking about individual men, we're talking about men as a class. Men as a class have treated women abominably throughout history and that isn't up for debate.

But tbh this isn't your thread and I shouldn't have to spell this out. That doesn't mean you can't participate. It does mean its a safe space for women to discuss millennia of structural disadvantage which at its worst includes violence and rape but at a minimum includes huge financial disadvantage for almost every woman in any walk of life. As a starting point you need to understand that we're not here to prioritise your hurt feelings.

@Topgub and if the study acknowledges that the mothers lack of ability to put the child’s needs above her own can have a long lasting negative affect I think we can safely conclude that having to put the corporation of the employers needs before both her own and the child’s is going to have a negative affect.

I speak very much from experience to having to return to work when my child was six weeks old.

curious about biology not making women take on more childcare and housework, asking an academic, you can probably, hopefully correct me!

breastfeeding surely does? and then sets a precedent?

Yes, of course only women can give birth and breastfeed. Which is why we have protected maternity rights and rights around breastfeeding. However, beyond that stage there is no biological reason for women to do a higher proportion of childcare. The reason women do is down to societal expectations around the the role of men and women in the home and at work.

With regards to housework…
I feel women take on more housework because they prefer a cleaner environment, isn’t feeling grossed out by something biology?

There is no sex based biological reason for you wanting a cleaner environment. That's just your preference as an individual.

Genuinely interested in this as I do the majority of the housework and would love my other half (a man who doesn’t seem to see or be bothered by mess) to do more. If I can understand the reasons behind it, I can try to make changes without resorting to nagging and threats!

The fact your partner doesn't do his share of housework is nothing to do with biology. Having a penis doesn't make you incapable of cleaning a house. It's very much down to societal expectations around the role of women.
Unfortunately lots of men (and women) believe that cleaning and childcare is womens work.

It's nothing to do with biology.

I imagine in early humans, women would naturally take on the majority of the child rearing while men would hunt. Is that a huge misconception, or socialisation at it’s beginning for humans?

It's not a clear cut as people believe and anyway, society evolves. On a societal level there is no reason why men can't do their fair share of childcare or housework.

@Nothappyatwork

The study doesn't acknowledge that though.

I dont actually even know what that means?

The mothers lack of ability to put the child’s needs above her own?

You sound traumatised by having to go to work. But that's not really an excuse to suggest wm are harming their children.

Its total nonsense.

And of course totally ignores dads and their input.

No one says dads lack ability to put the child’s needs above his own when they go back to work after a few weeks

The single biggest indicator of poor outcomes for a child is lack of maternal bonding, returning to work reduces the physical attachment that cannot be disputed..

Actually, the biggest indicator of poor outcomes is poverty.

What absolute sexist claptrap.

Yes, why don't we listen to these men spouting their mysoginist bullshit that working mothers are to blame for the agreesive natures of some men.

Returning to work didn't affect the bond I have with my kiss.

It must be incredibly rare, in general, to find two partners who earn broadly the same money. I definitely didn't choose my wife based on salary and salary changes over time, so makes things even more difficult. Nowadays I'd have to find a Dr. Solicitor or Account etc if I were to look for financial equality and that would really narrow the pool. Fortunately there's no need as I'm still happily married but the money thing is quite interesting.

What you're saying is interesting and looks like men will need to adapt, mainly to not get put out by a high earning wife/girlfriend/partner but also to accept a new dynamic. I personally can't imagine why it'd be an issue if my wife earned the same or more than me. It would benefit the household no end and she would feel more empowered/independent. We pool our money anyway but think it would make a difference.

Anecdotal but I know a woman who's very successful but is very unhappy single. She would very much love a relationship/marriage but her problem is that high earning men in the city tend to be dicks (or at least the ones she's meeting are). High level execs who are entitled as hell and don't like a high earning woman.

I'm interested in your comment about a woman not wanting a man to be dependent. Men have been doing this for ages and my wife is currently dependent on me for the lifestyle we live. Obviously this is mainly because of children and choices we've made but it wouldn't bother me if I met a woman who earned less. I appreciate that this has sexist history (men looking after women) but why would it be a problem for a man to be financially dependent?

The criminal outcomes of those in the study looked at both the mother and the father‘s role within the upbringing, so you’re being incredibly abstruse if you’re concluding that by one out come influencing in a positive sense automatically means that the opposite of it has a negative affect. Nobody is suggesting that working mothers are harming their children but there is evidence that states that stay at home mums are benefiting, the two are not mutually exclusive.

i’m not traumatised, what a ridiculous statement but I definitely saw the difference in outcomes for all of the family when I wasn’t rushed straight back to work which in turn did benefit society.

I became a net contributor which would not have happened on my original path.

we need to offer people a little bit of support when they need it and look at the bigger picture as to her that has an overall beneficial effect.

With respect you’ll never know will you, you can’t go back and do it again the other way.

Sorry @YouAreNotBatman , I didn't mean you. I meant the disturbingly ableist poster (who on other threads jeers at women who eg don't want their partners to read their diaries - and think they're unreasonable for minding when that partner wrestles it from them... this is yet another opportunity to attack women on that person's part, not feminism). I should have said "original commenter", and not OP.

I agree with your OP. I think this is one of the most virulent backlashes to feminism imaginable, and I think the internet is fuelling it via a reframing of the abuse and exploitation of women as 'sex positivity'.

@Lunar270

why would it be a problem for a man to be financially dependent?

It's an interesting question and there isn't a simple answer which isn't bound up with social conditioning but I'll have a go:

If a man was raising our children (or my children) I could make peace with it on the grounds he was providing valuable support to the children and household. I still wouldn't be comfortable as a permanent solution because I don't think its great for a household to depend entirely on one partner for all money, be that the man or the woman. I don't think it makes for a healthy or safe dynamic so I'd want it to be temporary. But I'd be fine with it for a limited period.

If there were no children in the picture I would resent having to do all the financial legwork. There's absolutely no need for a healthy and able-bodied adult adult of either sex to be supported entirely by another human being unless they are devoted FT to childcare. That would be a dealbreaker unless it was triggered by a specific thing such as redundancy or illness and short term.

Over time I would also lose respect for someone who had no interest in having any financial autonomy from me. I would be absolutely fine with someone earning less than me in a fulfilled job or even a part-time job with a hobby or passion (as long as there was enough coming in elsewhere) but someone who was content to do the bare minimum and look to me to be the breadwinner would lose my trust and respect.

I am not in general a fan of people who want to bimble along doing as little as possible. I would hate it in myself and struggle to treat a partner doing it as an equal.

@Nothappyatwork

Findings: More than half of the juvenile thieves had been separated from their mothers for longer than six months during their first five years. In the control group only two had had such a separation.

Bowlby found that 86% of the ‘affectionless psychopaths’ in group 1 (‘thieves) had experienced a long period of maternal separation before the age of 5 years (they had spent most of their early years in residential homes or hospitals and were not often visited by their families).

That's not really the same as using childcare is it?

@Nothappyatwork

I'm struggling to follow what you're saying tbh but

Nobody is suggesting that working mothers are harming their children but there is evidence that states that stay at home mums are benefiting, the two are not mutually exclusive.

There isn't evidence that sahms are benefiting their children

And your comments absolutely are implying wm are harming their children by turning them into juvenile delinquents

Despite there being no evidence that's the case.

And of course I can know my bond with my kids hasn't been affected.

The idea that you can only bond or form a secure attachment if your with them 24/7 for ever is nonsense

But given as you appear to believe it perhaps you can answer when the damage is done?

After 1 hour apart? 3? 12?

At 6 months? 1 year? 5?

How much time and for how many years do you have to spend glued to your children to ensure a secure bond?

Funny how PP missed this bit.

1. Role of Fathers

The absence of the father is the single most important cause of crime.1) In fact, boys who are fatherless from birth are three times as likely to go to jail as peers from intact families, while boys whose fathers do not leave until they are 10 to 14 years old are two times as likely to go to jail as their peers from intact families.2) According to Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation, children without a father are more than twice as likely to be arrested for a juvenile crime and are three times more likely to go to jail by the time they reach age 30 than are children raised in intact families.3) Adolescents who had a positive relationship with their fathers are less likely to be arrested, belong to a gang, damage property, steal, or run away compared to their peers with less positive relationships with their fathers.4) Along with the increased probability of family poverty and heightened risk of delinquency, a father's absence is associated with a host of other social problems. The three most prominent effects are lower intellectual development, higher levels of illegitimate parenting in the teenage years, and higher levels of welfare dependency.5) According to a 1990 report from the Department of Justice, more often than not, missing and “throwaway” children come from single-parent families, families with step parents, and cohabiting-adult families.

I wonder how many men are hand wringing on male dominated forums or in real life about the effects of leaving their families/abandoning their children.

You have read all the statistics and stories on here and the only thing you are shocked about is women being 'mean' about men?

Not the rapes and the murders and the domestic violence and the sexist behaviours the societal imbalance, the 12 years olds getting cat called?

No just some 'mean' women.

Yeah you might want to work on your balance and perspective there is that's your taken away from this threat.

@Thepeopleversuswork

Thanks. Much appreciated and totally understand your POV. It probably the right stance as otherwise we're swapping one outmoded societal norm for the reverse, instead of working toward a more equal scenario.

Personally I don't have an issue with my situation as my wife desperately wanted to be a SAHM. So it's ended up this way but women who do this are highly vulnerable financially. It's a difficult situation and better compensation is required to protect women in the event of a split/divorce.

Interestingly I do know a few couples who split childcare 50/50 and work part time but this is rare. But it's definitely a good way to ensure both can maintain their careers and earning potential, even if it is a part time salary in the short term. I guess the net income is similar to one good salary and a SAHP.

I suppose this could be a benefit to society (SAH parenting that is) as it's changing societal norms for the better but let's not go down that road again!

the idea being strongly advocated on here that half the population are predominantly made up of testosterone fuelled, women hating species is just ridiculous.

But is it ridiculous?
If you really looked at the behaviour of men then you'd understand where we are coming from. We're not just talking about the extreme behaviour such as domestic homicide, domestic violence, rape and sexual assault, which are probably more common than you think, but we're also talking about the low level, every day stuff. This is the way men talk to, and about women, the way they treat them, the expectations around work, childcare and housework.

Just this weekend I've witnessed numerous occasions of men being routinely disrespectful to women and the depressing thing is, they're considered the good guys in the scheme of things.

MY DH earns less than me but at times he has earnt more. I have retrained in a career which means within a few years I will probably be massively out earning him.

I have zero issues being the breadwinner because he has always had a strong work ethic, he's a stable steady earner and although he is not ambitious he is always a reliable worker who is well valued by his managers.

However, what I see complained about a lot on here, with men who earn less/nothing is actually more along the lines of cocklodgers. Men who move in with higher earning women and don't contribute and crucially also don't do any of the things a traditional house wife would have done either.

Personally if we had had kids I would have wanted to do shared parental leave, and then both dropped down 1 day a week so the child was only in childcare 3 days a week for the first few years, then both go back to full time when the child was in school full time. That way we take an equal hit to our earning and career prospects and then we both regain them at the same time. My DH was fully on board with this, unfortunately my uterus wasn't.

My cousin on the other hand is the higher earner in their relationship. Over the 15 years they have been married her DH has been sacked 5 times, made redundant several more and hasn't worked in any job longer than 12 month, most less. Now she is earning enough to support them both he has given up work to be a self employed writer but its been 2 years and he hasn't brought in a single penny. He also does none of the housework. expects her to take time off when their daughter is sick, expected her to do all the parental leave and whenever it is the holidays the kid goes to their grandparents because he is off out 'researching' for his writing.

So for me, I think when women with good careers talk about financially stable men, its not necessarily 6 figure earners, but it is reliable stable earners who don't think its okay to just go part time, or give up work but also not do anything with that time to benefit the family.

As for divorcing SAHD's more, if you look on the threads on relationships it feels like (but I don't know if it statistically true) that SAHM's get cheated on/divorced more. Possibly because a power imbalance can lead more readily to a lack of respect regardless of the sexes?

Is it hate or fear? We do hold all the power despite how many years most misogynistic societies and religions have attempted to surpress us. They often say we complicate things when we are actually thinking about all consequences including feelings.

Think they know we are far superior on many intelligent levels. I wholeheartedly agree the worst sexism has been from other women who seemingly like to be controlled and know their place.
Obviously this is all a massive generalisation.

Women can be sadistic, cruel and vicious too. In my life, it's definitely women who have been the cruellest. By far. We cant just say that men are cruel, and women are sweet Angels. It's not true. At all.

When I was a child, my aunt's were nasty to me.
When I went to school, the girls were vicious. Not just to me but to every girl. The girls really thoroughly enjoyed bullying other girls. There was such psychological cruelty and nastiness from girls.

When I began work, I used to work in a female dominated area. Youth and community work. Social care. I used to work in a centre that had 30 female employees and 1 man.
The amount of bitching, backstabbing and cruelty was horrendous. Women would constantly try to get other women into trouble. Women would tell women not to talk to one woman. I began to dread going in. I loved my job but I hated the people that work there.

I actually retrained so I could work in a more gender balanced career. That had men and women. When I did this, my working life became much easier.

I have a large group of friends. Any time one of them has a bad boss, that boss is always female. I have heard about many female bosses that love destroying people's lives.

Women can be extremely cruel and vicious.
If you even look on Mumsnet, there are so so many women on here that enjoy tearing other women down.

So the question could be: why are women so cruel?

Haven’t rtft in full, but wanted to comment along with some of the excellent posts I’ve read.

I think porn is something of a canary in the coal mine.
It’s hugely accepted that the vast majority of men watch porn, to the point where women saying this crosses a line for them are often ridiculed.

The thing is though, porn isn’t just harmless titillation, it is an entitlement to women’s bodies - to watch, to use, to abuse. It’s very well known that porn (and prostitution for that matter) uses trafficked women, but that’s not enough to stop men from watching more and more violent porn.

Teenage boys of the UK have easy access to porn, which is terrible for teenage girls, as average porn apparently routinely shows violence as normal sex.

Research suggests that more men are paedophiles than ever understood, thanks to evidence found on the internet and the dark web.

Watching any films show us that men can be average looking, overweight, untoned, but women must be very slim, bikini ready, toned.

Further research suggests that single, child free women are happier than those who are married with children (I know many of both and this certainly seems to play out in rl). Married men fair better than single men.

Whilst I have men in my life that I love, once you see the subtle day to day misogyny displayed by pretty much all men it’s difficult to unsee.

Does that make me a man hater? I don’t think so. If I had to define it it’s the lessons I’ve learnt in my almost 50 years of the way most men behave in certain circumstances, in a way that most women don’t.
I will not ever rape a man or beat a partner to death, or partake in “locker room” talk about men using explicit and violent terms. My general wariness of men would easily see me choosing to spend my time away from them. Men’s issues with women sees them wanting to punish them, coerce them, in a way that, statistically, women don’t.

And before anyone NAMALTs me, I disagree. Most men may not rape or kill, but most men do not tackle their friends/family about jokes they may tell on these subjects, would go into strip clubs because they don’t want to be the only one saying no.
Every woman knows other women who have been raped or assaulted. No man will admit to knowing a rapist.

On a biological level its the same across the animal kingdom.
Testosterone makes people angry.

Males are naturally more aggressive than females.
Maybe they know if they picked a fight with another male it might not go too well, so females are generally an easier target as an outlet for their aggression.

Just looking at it from a purely biological and evolutionary perspective.