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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why men hate women so much?

782 replies

YouAreNotBatman · 07/08/2022 11:09

Violence againt women, sexual harrasment.

Controlling women bodies.

Women’s sexuality: frigid prude if you don’t want sex, slut if you.

Porn, sex ”work”.

All the MRA’s, mgtow, incels etc.

Even historically speaking they have no reason to be angry at women, women never had any power, mostly tried to accommodate to men’s demand/ wants, I think it still goes on.

Many women still tip toe the line to placate men.

What reason do they have to be so angry at women?

OP posts:
Sheepreallylikerichteabiscuits · 07/08/2022 18:34

DandyLandy · 07/08/2022 18:31

@Suetodo88

You're still to respond to posters asking this

Wonder why

Also hasn't managed to name a single business were men are forced to employ women despite being adamant its a thing

Or explain what it is women are 'taking away' from her sons

DandyLandy · 07/08/2022 18:36

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:34

@DandyLandy

If my sons or any other men want to become stay at home dads I’m fine with that. I think it’s wonderful men who are inclined that way have the chance to do that now. Why wouldn’t I encourage it? I’m great lol so why shouldn’t someone aspire to be like me?🤭

I just find it unlikely that equal numbers of men will be inclined toward that role. And that’s ok too. Just so long as those who are aren’t looked down on

Why do you think not many men would be inclined into that role?

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:40

gnilliwdog · 07/08/2022 18:29

In some ways I agree with you that I don't see it as progress for women to have equality under systems created by men, for men's benefit. I suppose the idea is that women will gradually change these systems to become more beneficial to women.

@gnilliwdog

But why change things to be beneficial for women? What if that just leads to men not wanting to be a part of them? Then your back to square one and men won’t have a problem starting up new systems and are not allergic to the idea.

What if compromise leaves both unsatisfied?

Why can’t men have things that suit them and women things that suit them?

The aversion here to this idea suggests to me that all these people pushing for equality don’t actually believe in equality as they don’t seem to think that if both men and women are left to their own devices women will be able to create something they think is worth having. They only seem to be able to imagine a world where women succeed through attachment to male systems and then adapting their systems to better suit women.
I mean what kind of sick equality is that?

gnilliwdog · 07/08/2022 18:40

Topgub · 07/08/2022 18:33

@gnilliwdog

But you must be aware that most dad's aren't taking a year out?

Most go back after a few weeks?

Do you find thar cruel too?

I am a single mum, as are most of my friends, so I don't really know much about how traditional couples manage. I think it would be great if one parent could stay at home longer, or have more time with children, if they choose to do that? I don't see it as virtuous to get back to work and find a childminder as soon as possible. I understand some people love their work, or feel better suited to that than childrearing, but I believe women should be supported in their choices, even if that is SAHM.

LovelyYellowLabrador · 07/08/2022 18:41

Maybe they are jealous women are the ones to give birth
not the actual birth part but really when you think about it the future of the human race is in our hands
the hand that rocks the cradle and all that xxx

ldontWanna · 07/08/2022 18:42

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:28

@Suetodo88

Maybe once long ago some women in some society were like “hey should we go out beyond that mountain and start a school of our own or something” and then some other woman said “no we need to stay here and continue to rely on what men give us”. That is how I see the attitude your taking to this. Sorry.

Wrong. Men stopped them from going, with control,force and violence, under the "guise" of protecting them.

Behind many breakthroughs, especially technological, you will find a woman somewhere, particularly at it's infancy. Women who against all odds "made" something which was either stolen,or not acknowledged for years and years. Do you know the women who made the NASA space program possible? Do you even know they existed?

Now that we can, women do have start ups,they start businesses, they build empires, they build schools.

That doesn't mean that every single woman must work in a woman hospital, police station,army, tech company etc. That's once again expecting women to work harder and putting more obstacles in their way.

I wonder if you're just as adamant that men need to make their own refuges,safe spaces,rape centres, fund their own charities etc.

Topgub · 07/08/2022 18:44

@Suetodo88

men will be inclined toward that role

Why not?

If its so valuable?

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:44

@DandyLandy

No reason to think they would. Nature and history suggest otherwise. They lack the same hormones and chemicals which bonds mothers to young children (not suggesting they don’t bond with their kids but it’s different). You can’t act like giving birth to a child with all that goes with it and the hormonal changes don’t situate a woman better to both be and also more incline her to want to be a stay at home parent? Of course they do. That’s just nature at play.
But it’s great that men who are outliers are not looked down on anymore and I would be perfectly happy for my sons to do that.

perfectstorm · 07/08/2022 18:45

I have two disabled children. Only one can attend school at all. Both are gifted (99.95 centile on Wechsler).

They are thriving because I care for them. Nobody else could do it as effectively or well as I do, because nobody can make them feel as secure as I can. And in one child's case, my work has saved the tax payer in excess of £100,000 a year, which is what an agency providing the same level of EOTAS I do for the eldest would charge on top of the £45,00 provision annually I secured myself for him via the Tribunal system. I can link to such agencies, if you are dubious.

Unless your taxes exceed £100,000 per annum, then I contribute more to society than you do. And that's before examining the fact that most kids like my eldest end up in SEMH schools (costing the above sums) and many end up in PRUs, after which they end up in Youth Offending residential settings. In excess of 75% of the young men in those are above diagnostic thresholds for various neurodevelopment disorders. The cost to the tax-payer in mental health provision, benefits, and prisons runs into the billions - yet many, many kids I know are home educated by women determined to avoid their kids suffering that level of harm and distress. And my two may be significantly disabled, but they're also gifted. 99.95% scores on the Wechsler. My son is doing A level algebra for fun at the moment. At 13. And my daughter was reading the Faraway Tree at 3. With the right care, support and education, they could be higher rate tax payers - and that's the level of care, support and education they get with me at the helm.

I suppose I could have used my Cambridge education to work insane hours in a Magic Circle firm, and paid for a specialist SEN nanny - or rather, a chain of them - to look after my two. And then of course forced the state to provide the agency education mentioned above. But as it happens, I love spending time with my kids. They're hilarious and fascinating and loveable.

I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2018. At the time, my odds weren't great. And all I could feel was huge relief, because if my time on earth was short, then I'd spent as much as I possibly could with my then 4 and 9 year olds. I was grateful beyond belief that I'd not gone back to work, as planned, even if the reasons for that (my son's diagnosis) had been painful, at the time.

There is no one size fits all for a life. Some women thrive and excel in careers, and it's appalling that barriers still exist to their doing so. Of course parental leave should be split, too, along the lines it is in eg Sweden. But human beings are social and familial animals, not robots, and it's rather sadly conformist, as well as blindly capitalist, to value a human being's labour contribution solely by status and earning capacity. There are other elements: happiness, and a sense of achievement and worth. I get that from caring for my kids. I know I do it well, and I know the benefits are manifold, for all of us. You can believe that or not - I have to say, I don't really care what some strangers on Mumsnet believe about the reality of the life I live, because I know my life far better. As, of course, you do yours.

I think women feel huge guilt, whatever choices they make. I think that while we attack one another, we ignore the far larger issue: that we are being blamed whatever we do, rather than the system being shaped so we can make positive choices about what best suits our lives, and our children's care. In some cases, that will be their parents. In others, a bored, bitter and fed up carer is worse, however closely related, than a loving nursery or dedicated child minder. It's not a cloned system, and it shouldn't be.

But I would point out that while parents work, someone else must look after their kids. And that someone is, almost always, a fairly badly paid woman. And I also note that it is inherently misogynist to devalue, denigrate and dismiss as valueless labour so closely connected to female biology - our reproductive capacity. It should not be forced upon women, absolutely. Our horizons should be wide open. But nor should it be demeaned, in a slavish adherence to the idea that only traditionally male labour contributions have value or merit. There is nothing liberated or progressive about that at all - and as women won't stop having babies, and many won't stop having a huge urge to care for those babies themselves, all such an approach does is perpetuate misogyny and the denigration of the female sex.

Sheepreallylikerichteabiscuits · 07/08/2022 18:46

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:40

@gnilliwdog

But why change things to be beneficial for women? What if that just leads to men not wanting to be a part of them? Then your back to square one and men won’t have a problem starting up new systems and are not allergic to the idea.

What if compromise leaves both unsatisfied?

Why can’t men have things that suit them and women things that suit them?

The aversion here to this idea suggests to me that all these people pushing for equality don’t actually believe in equality as they don’t seem to think that if both men and women are left to their own devices women will be able to create something they think is worth having. They only seem to be able to imagine a world where women succeed through attachment to male systems and then adapting their systems to better suit women.
I mean what kind of sick equality is that?

Can you explain precisely how women are supposed to create a second government that somehow co-exists next to the current one, but then allows for the laws to change to allow equality, whilst not taking over from the current government?

Because without that all of your pontificating on how women should just create everything from scratch is rubbish.

Its also ironic that you are ignoring the fact that there are plenty of women out there starting their own businesses, whilst interacting on a platform created by a woman. A woman who employs men because sex segregated businesses are a nonsense idea.

ldontWanna · 07/08/2022 18:46

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:34

@DandyLandy

If my sons or any other men want to become stay at home dads I’m fine with that. I think it’s wonderful men who are inclined that way have the chance to do that now. Why wouldn’t I encourage it? I’m great lol so why shouldn’t someone aspire to be like me?🤭

I just find it unlikely that equal numbers of men will be inclined toward that role. And that’s ok too. Just so long as those who are aren’t looked down on

You know why those wonderful men have the chance to do so now? Because of women's fights for equal rights,for better pay,to not be seen as the automatic carer, to not be expected to quit their jobs the moment they procreated.

This amazing chance,you're so happy for wasn't brought on by men. It was brought on by the blood,sweat,tears and hard work of women.

Topgub · 07/08/2022 18:47

@gnilliwdog

Why just one parent?

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:48

@Idontwanna

Did they really stop them though? How much did they really risk to try it? There is little evidence it was ever even though if until after the industrial revolution made it desirable to try.

Its silly to pretend that every male invention was stolen from women, that’s just a Hollywood fantasy.

Of course men should make their own spaces if they want them rather than co opt womens and force them to change until women no longer want to use them - that’s my whole point.

Sheepreallylikerichteabiscuits · 07/08/2022 18:51

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:48

@Idontwanna

Did they really stop them though? How much did they really risk to try it? There is little evidence it was ever even though if until after the industrial revolution made it desirable to try.

Its silly to pretend that every male invention was stolen from women, that’s just a Hollywood fantasy.

Of course men should make their own spaces if they want them rather than co opt womens and force them to change until women no longer want to use them - that’s my whole point.

Well men are currently trying to co-opt womens DV refuges so why don't you put some effort into trying to stop that instead of into telling women how shit they are?

perfectstorm · 07/08/2022 18:51

ldontWanna · 07/08/2022 18:42

Wrong. Men stopped them from going, with control,force and violence, under the "guise" of protecting them.

Behind many breakthroughs, especially technological, you will find a woman somewhere, particularly at it's infancy. Women who against all odds "made" something which was either stolen,or not acknowledged for years and years. Do you know the women who made the NASA space program possible? Do you even know they existed?

Now that we can, women do have start ups,they start businesses, they build empires, they build schools.

That doesn't mean that every single woman must work in a woman hospital, police station,army, tech company etc. That's once again expecting women to work harder and putting more obstacles in their way.

I wonder if you're just as adamant that men need to make their own refuges,safe spaces,rape centres, fund their own charities etc.

Agree with this. There are so many women scientists whose achievements remain unknown. And not uncommonly, that's at least partly because a man stole the work and took the credit. Cecilia Payne being the glowing example.

She discovered, quite literally, what the universe is made of. And yet most kids would look blank if you even mentioned her name. (And how many more women like her would there have been, had women been permitted an education before the last 150 years or so? What a waste of human potential.)

gnilliwdog · 07/08/2022 18:51

@perfectstorm that was so eloquent and clear, thank you so much for that post.

Topgub · 07/08/2022 18:51

@Suetodo88

Do you honestly believe that men and women always want completely different things?

Surely you don't actually believe that men are better than women?
Or that they're biologically programmed to be in charge while women play house?

Also, men produce nurturing hormones too. The more direct childcare they do, the more they produce

If women are biologically programmed to want to be sahms does that mean women who don't (the majority of women) are defective?

DandyLandy · 07/08/2022 18:53

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:48

@Idontwanna

Did they really stop them though? How much did they really risk to try it? There is little evidence it was ever even though if until after the industrial revolution made it desirable to try.

Its silly to pretend that every male invention was stolen from women, that’s just a Hollywood fantasy.

Of course men should make their own spaces if they want them rather than co opt womens and force them to change until women no longer want to use them - that’s my whole point.

Of course women were stopped

Do you not understand what the law looked like for women decades ago?

Or what employment looked like

Or university admissions?

You're really not helping the SAHM stereotypes

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:53

Anyways I just want everyone to be happy. SAHM to be valued. Men not feel like they just exist to be used in the workplace to provide jobs for women. And also women to have more confidence in their ability to start new companies so we don’t need to press men for a place.

Pretending we’re the same and all need to be re educated and stuffed into gender no gap grey and bland and equal workplaces sounds like a bad trip to me.

Peace out all!😘

DandyLandy · 07/08/2022 18:54

perfectstorm · 07/08/2022 18:45

I have two disabled children. Only one can attend school at all. Both are gifted (99.95 centile on Wechsler).

They are thriving because I care for them. Nobody else could do it as effectively or well as I do, because nobody can make them feel as secure as I can. And in one child's case, my work has saved the tax payer in excess of £100,000 a year, which is what an agency providing the same level of EOTAS I do for the eldest would charge on top of the £45,00 provision annually I secured myself for him via the Tribunal system. I can link to such agencies, if you are dubious.

Unless your taxes exceed £100,000 per annum, then I contribute more to society than you do. And that's before examining the fact that most kids like my eldest end up in SEMH schools (costing the above sums) and many end up in PRUs, after which they end up in Youth Offending residential settings. In excess of 75% of the young men in those are above diagnostic thresholds for various neurodevelopment disorders. The cost to the tax-payer in mental health provision, benefits, and prisons runs into the billions - yet many, many kids I know are home educated by women determined to avoid their kids suffering that level of harm and distress. And my two may be significantly disabled, but they're also gifted. 99.95% scores on the Wechsler. My son is doing A level algebra for fun at the moment. At 13. And my daughter was reading the Faraway Tree at 3. With the right care, support and education, they could be higher rate tax payers - and that's the level of care, support and education they get with me at the helm.

I suppose I could have used my Cambridge education to work insane hours in a Magic Circle firm, and paid for a specialist SEN nanny - or rather, a chain of them - to look after my two. And then of course forced the state to provide the agency education mentioned above. But as it happens, I love spending time with my kids. They're hilarious and fascinating and loveable.

I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2018. At the time, my odds weren't great. And all I could feel was huge relief, because if my time on earth was short, then I'd spent as much as I possibly could with my then 4 and 9 year olds. I was grateful beyond belief that I'd not gone back to work, as planned, even if the reasons for that (my son's diagnosis) had been painful, at the time.

There is no one size fits all for a life. Some women thrive and excel in careers, and it's appalling that barriers still exist to their doing so. Of course parental leave should be split, too, along the lines it is in eg Sweden. But human beings are social and familial animals, not robots, and it's rather sadly conformist, as well as blindly capitalist, to value a human being's labour contribution solely by status and earning capacity. There are other elements: happiness, and a sense of achievement and worth. I get that from caring for my kids. I know I do it well, and I know the benefits are manifold, for all of us. You can believe that or not - I have to say, I don't really care what some strangers on Mumsnet believe about the reality of the life I live, because I know my life far better. As, of course, you do yours.

I think women feel huge guilt, whatever choices they make. I think that while we attack one another, we ignore the far larger issue: that we are being blamed whatever we do, rather than the system being shaped so we can make positive choices about what best suits our lives, and our children's care. In some cases, that will be their parents. In others, a bored, bitter and fed up carer is worse, however closely related, than a loving nursery or dedicated child minder. It's not a cloned system, and it shouldn't be.

But I would point out that while parents work, someone else must look after their kids. And that someone is, almost always, a fairly badly paid woman. And I also note that it is inherently misogynist to devalue, denigrate and dismiss as valueless labour so closely connected to female biology - our reproductive capacity. It should not be forced upon women, absolutely. Our horizons should be wide open. But nor should it be demeaned, in a slavish adherence to the idea that only traditionally male labour contributions have value or merit. There is nothing liberated or progressive about that at all - and as women won't stop having babies, and many won't stop having a huge urge to care for those babies themselves, all such an approach does is perpetuate misogyny and the denigration of the female sex.

That's subjective

And not to be rude but you're not the only person who could care for them effectively

You entering the workforce and giving your children to a lower paid professional would be far more beneficial to society

gnilliwdog · 07/08/2022 18:55

@Topgub I suppose that's the model we have at the moment. One parent needs to bring in an income. If we moved to UBI I suppose both parents could stay at home, or work if they want, but UBI does not seem very likely under our current government.

Sheepreallylikerichteabiscuits · 07/08/2022 18:55

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:53

Anyways I just want everyone to be happy. SAHM to be valued. Men not feel like they just exist to be used in the workplace to provide jobs for women. And also women to have more confidence in their ability to start new companies so we don’t need to press men for a place.

Pretending we’re the same and all need to be re educated and stuffed into gender no gap grey and bland and equal workplaces sounds like a bad trip to me.

Peace out all!😘

Biscuit
TedMullins · 07/08/2022 18:57

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 17:34

@brookstar

Were probably not going to see eye to eye. I hope your right and it will all end up with everyone happy. I just don’t believe it’s within human nature for that to happen though.

I think we’re far more different than you realise and I don’t think men will view the changes positively.

If workplaces change and men think it’s bad then it’s bad and will eventually become bad for women. It is what it is. If you can’t bring them around to your way of thinking then that way is bad because it’s impractical.

Im not suggesting we segregate workplaces by law. I’m saying if they naturally self segregate to an extent and it doesn’t end in prefect equality with no gender pay gap then I’m ok with that. So long as everyone has some sort of opportunity. Right now I think we’re kind of forcing them together with artifice and I don’t think it will hold. I know some people do think if they’re forced together eventually it will just become the norm but I don’t agree. I think once it’s stopped being pushed for things just happen more naturally.

I don’t know what kind of men you hang out with but I don’t know any that think women are taking from them, shouldn’t be in their workplaces or aren’t equal to them. That is a frighteningly regressive way of thinking and the men you profess to know who think this sound downright dangerous.

Men made laws saying women couldn’t vote or own their own property, or open bank accounts without their husband’s consent, and rape within marriage was only outlawed in 1991. Because women fought for these things to happen, because they are human and deserve to buy houses, vote for who governs us and live free from being violated. Do you really think because men made these things, women should’ve just sucked it up?

Do you think women just happen to be bad at C-suite level roles and that’s why there are fewer of them in the boardroom? Do you think women’s football just didn’t exist before this year? Do you think everything the taliban represents and enforces should just be accepted, because they’re men and they made it therefore they should be left to it in case they don’t like being challenged?

these are the logical conclusions of your beliefs, and frankly they’re terrifying.

DandyLandy · 07/08/2022 18:57

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:53

Anyways I just want everyone to be happy. SAHM to be valued. Men not feel like they just exist to be used in the workplace to provide jobs for women. And also women to have more confidence in their ability to start new companies so we don’t need to press men for a place.

Pretending we’re the same and all need to be re educated and stuffed into gender no gap grey and bland and equal workplaces sounds like a bad trip to me.

Peace out all!😘

What men feel used in the workplace

You haven't given one example of this being an actual issue

Also why should SAHMs be valued

You still haven't quantified the value staying at home doing fuck all has to society

Suetodo88 · 07/08/2022 18:57

@DandyLandy

Her children are members of society. The two who are the most important to her. What she’s doing is beautiful and I don’t care if someone wants to rip on me but her post shouldn’t be attacked.
She’s a beautiful person and she deserves all the appreciation in the world. Society is better because she’s in it and she should never doubt it.

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