To wonder why men hate women so much?

[YouAreNotBatman]

Violence againt women, sexual harrasment.

Controlling women bodies.

Women’s sexuality: frigid prude if you don’t want sex, slut if you.

Porn, sex ”work”.

All the MRA’s, mgtow, incels etc.

Even historically speaking they have no reason to be angry at women, women never had any power, mostly tried to accommodate to men’s demand/ wants, I think it still goes on.

Many women still tip toe the line to placate men.

What reason do they have to be so angry at women?

@DandyLandy

But you say that as though not having big career aspirations and wanting to be a SAHM is a bad thing? To me that is an aspiration worth having so why would I want to discourage it.

You are right at a fundemental level I guess, the more SAHM there are the less women will be equal in career to men. Where you and I differ is I don’t have a problem with that so long as women aren’t barred from a career if they want one. I’m not emotionally invested in absolute equality for women at work as far as zero pay gap. Not if that’s come as a result of not allowing women who want to stay home to do so or trying to re-educate them out of wanting to do so. Why would I want to teach women staying at home was wrong when I think it’s a good thing if you want it?

Also there’s nothing wrong with health and beauty, the world is more than just corporate and lawyers. Don’t diss them if you’ve ever used a salon or had your nails done.

I just think that on earth, evleryone is cruel to the people that are weaker than them.

Women are cruel too. The worst child abuse stories that I have heard, were done by women.

I have seen many cruel mothers and stepmothers.

When I was a child, the cruellest adults around me were always the women. I knew always to be wary of the women, as it was the women that would make my life a misery if they wanted to. I find that there is a particular kind of cruelty from women which comes from jealousy.

The nastiest and cruellest people that I have met in my life , have been women.

Women can be cruel and nasty too. We can say why do men do it. We can also say why do women do it. Why? Because a lot of humans enjoy having power over others.

Yes, depressing isn't it. Women who hate men want to stay as far away from men as possible - have nothing to do with them. Men who hate women want to hurt women, want to cause us pain, mental and physical.

@DandyLandy

Totally agree. Also with no disrespect intended towards SAHMs it isn’t something which needs a big societal push. For many years it was the default and still is the path of least resistance for many families.

Also should we be seeking to make it easier for women to take a path that leaves them and their children financially vulnerable? I don’t think it benefits women or society to push them to exit the labour force in large numbers.

I don’t think it’s a matter of just the best person for the job when it comes to gender though.
What?? It absolutely should be.

Workplaces change when they become dominated by one sex or the other or when they are mixed.

Why is that a bad thing?

We are different
We're not as different as you think

The point is if men wish to work in a certain way and are capable of creating that then why is it on them to provide places in a workplace they create to women who will change it in a way they don’t want it to be changed?

Again, why are mens feelings being prioritised here? What if men welcome the changes that occur when you have a diverse workforce.

Surely that is not equality at all?
I think we need to encourage women to create more of their own workplaces to the level that is possible.

Are you suggesting that we should have segregated workplaces?

I think the whole thing of we need to even the playing field with positive discrimination first just reeks of an excuse to expect men give more. I’m not sure that that will ever end.

Positive discrimination is illegal.

@Thepeopleversuswork

They might feel that way if what women see as equality is different to what men see as equality. For instance if men see what some women see as equality as just taking more of what men make to give to women (more at work or whatever) so women get half through gender quotas or whatever they may not see that as equality.

So you can get in a situation where what many women are as equality men just see as women using them in a new way. And that’s the problem. If both men and women see womens equality and the fight for it the same way then there wouldn’t be a problem. But I don’t think they do.
I really don’t have high hopes for it all. In some ways I feel like we’ve gone against nature and are on borrowed time with it all. Just my feelings. Maybe I’m wrong and it will all be wonderful but nothing in history would seem to suggest it.

Luna270

So sex is a way of looking powerful in front of other men ? Like a status symbol? Thanks for the male perspective btw .

Ultimately we will have to make that for ourselves. Or not. But make something and be satisfied with it. Otherwise we’re just living “equal” for as long as men provide it to us.

sigh. We do not have to ‘make ourselves equal’. WE ARE EQUAL. We start out equal. We have always been and will always be equal. Not the same. Equal. And yes, we can and I will DEMAND to be treated equally. I will not stay in a relationship with a man who doesn’t treat me with the respect he treats other men. I won’t buy from places that patronise me. I won’t use services that that I feel are not giving me the service they give their male clients (although I mostly choose women) Where I must (like the health service) if I believe women are being treated inferiorly I will write and complain. With evidence. I will encourage and support other women to do so, and I will call out misogyny where I see it.

I’m afraid the men in my life really will have to suck it up. Up to and including my MP. I’m particularly sad that women like yourself (and many, many men I have known) are starting women off as less than men without even realising it, and having to do something or change change something themselves to BE EQUAL. When in fact we ARE EQUAL. We don’t have to change anything. Society has to change how it treats us. There are actual laws about it.

And Trump got voted out. Because he was an idiot who couldn’t run a bath, everyone can see that.

@Suetodo88 "How exactly did womens recent football win prove women “are better at most things”?
That makes very little sense

Except logical reasoning apparently ;)

Whatever you do , do not share these opinions with your sons. They'll forever be on the lookout for women "taking away" from them. Which breeds the exact thing you seem to fear.

Surveys of social attitudes indicate that there is significant consensus between men and women on matters like sexist attitudes, in the UK at least. There are a couple of surprises, iirc - men are slightly more critical of some forms of street harassment; for example.

You can download the chapter here... it's a less bleak picture than you may think. It does suggest, however, that there is a significant minority if men and women who continue to hold sexist beliefs.

Link

Yes jealous is a driving factor with cruelty toward other women esp if it is related to her looks . Women tend to be mentally cruel than physically violent

@brookstar

Were probably not going to see eye to eye. I hope your right and it will all end up with everyone happy. I just don’t believe it’s within human nature for that to happen though.

I think we’re far more different than you realise and I don’t think men will view the changes positively.

If workplaces change and men think it’s bad then it’s bad and will eventually become bad for women. It is what it is. If you can’t bring them around to your way of thinking then that way is bad because it’s impractical.

Im not suggesting we segregate workplaces by law. I’m saying if they naturally self segregate to an extent and it doesn’t end in prefect equality with no gender pay gap then I’m ok with that. So long as everyone has some sort of opportunity. Right now I think we’re kind of forcing them together with artifice and I don’t think it will hold. I know some people do think if they’re forced together eventually it will just become the norm but I don’t agree. I think once it’s stopped being pushed for things just happen more naturally.

But it's not factual

The English womens team wouldn't win against the top ranked male teams

Hence why it's a bit silly to claim women are better as most things

@Eeksteek

That was kind of my point about Trump. Imagine if he actually had of been competent and did a great job? He would probably be on his way to being a real dictator.
Dont get me wrong I think he’s a comical and cruel baby man. But what if he wasn’t and he had that backing? That’s what I’m saying about it being a bad idea to let to many men become disenchanted with things.

You keep forgetting that for centuries women were not allowed to "make" anything. Men made shit, because they were the only ones who could. Even once women were allowed to "make" , numerous obstacles and challenges were put in their way ,before they even made it to the "work" station. From being laughed at and actively discouraged in school, to lack of suitable facilities, to being laughed at,not listened to in work,or their brilliant work stolen etc, to being abused and raped at their work place as a rite of passage or to prove they deserve to be there.

I think we’re far more different than you realise and I don’t think men will view the changes positively.

We're not that different. Most of the differences can be attributed to socialisation in relation to gender norms.

If workplaces change and men think it’s bad then it’s bad and will eventually become bad for women. It is what it is. If you can’t bring them around to your way of thinking then that way is bad because it’s impractical.
Again, why are you prioritising how men feel?

Im not suggesting we segregate workplaces by law. I’m saying if they naturally self segregate to an extent and it doesn’t end in prefect equality with no gender pay gap then I’m ok with that. So long as everyone has some sort of opportunity. Right now I think we’re kind of forcing them together with artifice and I don’t think it will hold. I know some people do think if they’re forced together eventually it will just become the norm but I don’t agree. I think once it’s stopped being pushed for things just happen more naturally.

They do self segregate and it's generally seen as a problem. It's a big part of my job to challenge this.
I'm not okay with a gender pay gap or women having fewer opportunities than men or being underrepresented in particular sectors.

In many ways I feel that the push for supposed equality has taken the form of degrading and trying to destroy more traditional roles like a SAHM and twhereas that was equally valued to what men did before (which was a kind of equality) now it isn’t, so that form of equality has been lost to make room for the kind of equality other women want.

Its like the attitude that one persons place has to be destroyed so another can have there place.

I don't think men hate women
I think most men are in deep denial about how badly women are treated by (some) men, as 1) they don't want to acknowledge that men do that as it makes them feel guilt by association and 2) they have mums/wives/sisters/friends that they love and don't want to think about all the shit that does/will/could happen to those women. That group of men basically is fingers in ears, la-la-la can't hear you, about women's oppression

I think there is a significant minority of men who are entitled and feel superior to women, who cause most of the problems. Even then I think they are mainly indifferent and see women as objects. In the same way you don't hate your washing machine or the animals that die to feed you. Those men just see women as domestic appliances to feed/shag/care for them and not as humans.

Unfortunately the combination of both creates a society where women are second class citizens.

It was never valued by MEN as equal to what they did.

Of course it's a bad thing

How are women to close the gender pay gap if they don't actually go back to work

How is not being able to be a positive role model to your female children a good thing?

If I was PM I'd make free childcare a thing from 1 year onwards. And actually penalise families where the mothers don't go back to work. Extra tax for the husbands. I'd also force both parents to take parental leave, 6 months each.

As it does nothing but perpetuate dangerous stereotypes for women. That they're there to care, nurture and not work.

@brookstar

Most of the differences can’t be attributed to socialisation. That’s wishful thinking and not scientific. It’s social science pretending to be science. There are masses of differences hormonally and in other ways which affect our minds.

About no other animal would we pretend gender didn’t play a significant part in determining action and though other than ourselves. Maybe Male Hippos only want to rule a river because of their socialisation? Or Elephants want to become matriarchal because of socialisation?
The socialisation happens because of the biology, it’s nonsense to think it’s the other way around.

I don't even think it's denial

It's they just don't see it

Like for many white people they never understand racism. Like actually understand it.

My husband had a come to Jesus moment when working from home a few months ago and we had workmen in. The amount that would speak down to me, not listen to my points or ask to speak to him (when they didn't know he was in the house) after that he actually said Christ I never really understood how common this shit is. 90% of the men who came through the door this week didn't respect you, so much so the ones who did stood out (jack the door fitter - an absolutely amazing young man)

It's silly to think people will ever truly appreciate issues they don't face.

@brookstar

I don’t see self segregation of gender as a problem. I think of women are underrepresented (or men) in some sectors that may be either natural or perhaps women need to gradually create more startups in those areas, rather than pushing men to provide them with more places.

I don’t support trying to jam everyone 50/50 into everything regardless of who created the workplace or whatever else.

You are wrong.
There are biological differences but they don't impact our education or career choices. That's socialisation.
Biology doesn't make more women work part time and take on a higher proportion of childcare or housework- that's socialisation.

Oh and I'm a social sciences academic so cheers for the dig 🙄