To wonder why men hate women so much?

[YouAreNotBatman]

Violence againt women, sexual harrasment.

Controlling women bodies.

Women’s sexuality: frigid prude if you don’t want sex, slut if you.

Porn, sex ”work”.

All the MRA’s, mgtow, incels etc.

Even historically speaking they have no reason to be angry at women, women never had any power, mostly tried to accommodate to men’s demand/ wants, I think it still goes on.

Many women still tip toe the line to placate men.

What reason do they have to be so angry at women?

You wonder what gets the really hateful men started. I saw this old TV movie recently about the American Hillside stranglers recently (good movie) and they were two seemingly normal (uncle and nephew) guys who just randomly picked up women off the street and tortured, raped and murdered them then dumped them on the hillsides (hence the name). How does someone even develop into that? Maybe a genetic component since they were family?

And these were both guys who seemed normal and relatively good looking, one had a steady job and even had kids. The other was more of the psychopath stereotype but still able to attend University and so on.

How do some men get so so so out there and yet are still able to function in society until they get caught? It seems a uniquely male thing (even though it’s rare even for men).

Haven't RTFT. The hatred (misogyny) came about through the ideology (patriarchy) that sought to justify and thus legitimise male power. It's a practice that has been in place for 1000s of years. That's the source. Just as racism came from the ideology justifying colonialism and slavery.

Yes it's awful . I believe a lot of men (not all) put women into two groups whores and angels . I think they justify their behaviour towards some women because of it .

I’ve heard this said before and I’m sure there is a lot of truth to it.
And what makes it even worse, is that both of these women get treated badly - in different way - by men, even though it’s not their fault in any way.

But they will never admit to paying for it . It's a sensitive subject with them . I think it's just to have a release without the hassle and expense of wining and dining women then getting knocked back which they hate . They just want to fuck and go . Some pay women for sex because they will do something the wife don't do or they are scared to ask

It's like bullies who pick on people they think are less than .

@cheekychatta I have heard about many men using prostitutes. They want it. They can buy it.

Why wouldn't they. There is no point being naive in this life

@Idontwanna

I guess because often equality seems to take the form of men having something they’ve made, then women wanting entry to it, then women wanting to change it to suit them better - that’s taking away from men. I think it will just prompt men to eventually just want to do things by themselves more so they can have them as they wish.

Also it’s not a fear of repercussions or at least I hope that won’t happen, I’m just acknowledging reality that all the laws that allow equality or force men to give position to women are just like any laws dependent on a system upheld by male violence (which all human society is). We act like that violence is some natural resource that we will always have access to as women but it’s not, it belongs to men, we just borrow it from them but that only applies if they wish to give it (as a group). To pretend that isn’t reality is just delusion.

We need to ensure society doesn’t become undesirable for men to uphold and contribute to which I’m not sure we’re doing a great job of right now. It’s all well and good for us to tell them what they should want but if they really disagree they’re quite as capable as women of pushing against that and much more capable of changes things drastically in a short amount of time.
I just worry that we’re tipping things without knowing it.

It's a way of getting a release without putting any effort in getting to know a woman etc with no emotion involved. Men have told me that all they want to do after having sex with women is just to get up and go home . They can do just that with a prostitute .

I think women need more information. Information is power. I had never heard of gaslighting, stonewalling, negging etc until I started reading mumsnet a good few years ago and then realised that actually I wasn’t going mad but I was in fact in an abusive marriage. I literally couldn’t see the wood for the trees while every instinct in my body was screaming at me.

We need to teach women what is acceptable and what isn’t, to have independence in their relationships, to have financial independence and to have high standards and strong boundaries. Women give up so much for their families, a lot more than men ever do.

The amount of women who have told me how lucky I am to be single since I separated from my ex is actually quite sad. One even remarked that I was so lucky because I don’t need to have sex anymore if I don’t want to. What does that tell you about heterosexual relationships and men in general?

Some posts on here are

Men are scared of women - give it a rest

It's because women are better at most things, for example football based on the womens final - behave

We can give birth and they're intimidated - seek help

Porn - yawn

Like many things the world was set up a certain way, by and for men. It will take time to change culture around how men view women, just how it takes time for people to change their views on race and superiority.

Any group who has power based on something they don't control is unlikely to be jumping for joy at the prospect of that ending. Just like many women on here not liking the idea of sharing their changing rooms.

Change takes time, centuries of time.

But society evolves.
Why are mens feelings more important than women being able to participate equally in society?

@Suetodo88

What I would like to see is more recognition that SAHM or Mums that work less are an important part of society. I’m not wanting any prizes but I think it should be more recognised again. In the push to modernise the workplace there’s been a knock on effect of devaluing the SAHM which imo is wrong.

How would you propose to do that in practice though?

Don't want to derail the thread but this comes up on every single thread about SAHM vs WOHM: someone will pipe up and say "no one values the SAHM" and no one has yet provided me with a decent defiinition of how you "value" the SAHM.

The only way to do this in practice would be either to disincentivise women with children from working or provide tax breaks to women for staying at home. In either scenario you're making life far harder for women who do want to or have to work.

Unless you're talking about the vague notion of creating more of a "societal" sense of value for a SAHM. Which is also problematic because working mums face enough judgement and barriers as it is without some arbitrary idea that they have less "value" than a woman who stays at home. And why should a woman who is supported by a man be seen as intrinsically of better "value" than one who isn't?

I fully agree that no one should put SAHMs down or judge them, but I have to work to support my child and I don't really want more barriers to this put in place than there already are, thanks very much.

@Thepeopleversuswork

I bet @Suetodo88 won't encourage her sons to be sahds

@Topgub

No indeed. The kind of people who talk about "valuing" SAHMs never see the "value" in a man doing more childcare or domestic labour.

It's the Angel in the Home syndrome from Charles Dickens all over again. No thank you.

@brookstar

Society doesn’t evolve past law being enforced by male violence or needing the backing of mens violence to exist, that is eternal. To think otherwise is like not believing in gravity or something. There is literally no other way. Not unless we become the slaves of robots or something out of sci fi.

What I’m saying is the problem is when men feel that equality is actually them giving to women rather than a truely equally created equally. Whether they’re right or wrong is irrelevant, it’s not about whether they’re feelings are more morally important, it’s about recognising that if men truly feel they have no stake in society or it has nothing to offer them en masse they aren’t going to uphold it and in truth we can’t do anything about that or stop them from doing whatever they want.

It’s like when revolutionaries take over a society, why does that happen? Because they’re morally right? No morality is irrelevant. It happens because they’ve got the people who are capable of the most violence on their side. Men always have the people capable of the most violent on their side over women because those people are men, that’s why we can never ever let it truly become an undesirable society for men.

Im talking about the reality of human nature.

It seems that some people on this thread feel that equality between women and men in the workplace is only going to be possible with a continuing "positive discrimination" attitude, a charitable action which helps women get equal pay? Which some people feel is unfair because the job should go to the best person available. Which would be a man?

Positive discrimination is something I see vilified a lot, I see it with race, I see it in education, I see it with women entering the workforce, I see it with people with additional needs, I am starting to see it with transgender issues. So many people think opportunities should go to the the best person for the job in that moment, with no ability to see the bigger picture, no ability to recognise the disparity and unfairness of centuries of disadvantage and the generational social problems that come alongside it. There has been so much disadvantage caused by upbringing, educational opportunities, health opportunities, sex discrimination, racial discrimination, cultural bias and more. How the hell can we ever begin to even see what equality looks like if we don't even have the foundations of it in our society? I am all for a massive reshuffle to see where the cards land and who is actually capable of doing what, because what we have is an utter joke. And some of these comments are v depressing.

Sometimes I think the day may come when a few women are farmed for egg production. Men will then fulfill their other desires with synthetic women, who don't menstruate or get pregnant or have menopause, none of those things that make women such a bother, kind of a stepford wives scenario. I know men love their female relatives now, but the way science and society is going I do wonder if in the future this would be seen as an advancement. Hopefully not.

@Thepeopleversuswork

I was speaking more about a societal sense of value. But I do think there should be more tax breaks for families with SAHP. If we are functioning as a single entity in the world with a SAHM and someone working why shouldn’t we be thought of more that way rather than expected to function as two working people? It’s not valuing a parents contribution imo.

I see. And have they also found a way to transplant an entire endocrine system from female to male?
Thought not.
It's not just about a uterus whatever the TRAs want you to believe.

it’s about recognising that if men truly feel they have no stake in society or it has nothing to offer them en masse they aren’t going to uphold it and in truth we can’t do anything about that or stop them from doing whatever they want.

But why should supporting female equality and autonomy in society make men feel they have no stake in society?

That presupposes that the entire "contract" between men and society, such as it is, is made on the basis of their needs being prioritised over those of women. And that they will trigger the breakdown of society and turn into wild animals if women continue to push for equality.

If this is how you think "society" is maintained then I'll take chaos.

I actually think the exact opposite

We should incentivise women back into work

It's the only way for long term improvements in equality for women in work

I also personally benefitted from seeing my mum work, she loved her job and it meant I was really keen to get into work and had ambitions. Everyone I grew up with who had a SAHM didn't have big career aspirations and are the ones stuck doing heath and beauty at college

@Suetodo88

You haven't explained why being a sahm should be valued.

Sex is a big deal for men as it is linked to power and status. Us men are supposed to like that sort of thing (not all of us mind).

I think historically, the subjugation of women was about controlling sex/reproduction. Sometimes I genuinely don't think much has changed for some men, despite thousands of years passing.

IMO I don't think men generally hate women (although some do) but just believe that women are here for them and their pleasure. Something to be won like a prize or conquered. For many men, sex isn't something reciprocal but something that's there for their own satisfaction. Whether a woman enjoys it or not is irrelevant.

@Flustered343

I don’t think it’s a matter of just the best person for the job when it comes to gender though. Workplaces change when they become dominated by one sex or the other or when they are mixed. We are different. The point is if men wish to work in a certain way and are capable of creating that then why is it on them to provide places in a workplace they create to women who will change it in a way they don’t want it to be changed?
Surely that is not equality at all?
I think we need to encourage women to create more of their own workplaces to the level that is possible.

I think the whole thing of we need to even the playing field with positive discrimination first just reeks of an excuse to expect men give more. I’m not sure that that will ever end.

I also think comparing race and gender is pointless as there is no fundemental difference in people of the same gender but differing skin colour, so once say a mixed race workplace of all men or all women is established it will just function normally as it did before. But men and women actually are fundementally different and it’s not just skin, adding one or the other changes the workplace fundementally.

What on earth are you talking about?
Again, you seem to think that mens feelings are more important than women gaining equality.
Why do you believe this?