To feel angry at Tory voters?

[Dottodo]

DF has always voted Tory. He’s very anti immigration and we will never see each other’s POV.
DHs friends are all Tory voters and hate being with them as they are all racist, xenophobic & misogynistic.
Other Tory voters I know through work or extended family members are also xenophobic and casually racist.
I’ve spoken to friends about this and they agree that the Tory voters they personally know are also racist and xenophobic.
Why is this?
Me and DH lived abroad and as we've lived as ‘foreigners’, we don’t share their views.

Cuba aside, most South & Central American countries are far right & if the US hadn't sanctioned Cuba for decades, they'd be better than they are.

So what your saying simply isn't true.

Plus they (US immigrants) as a bloc vote democrat.

Voters generally are pragmatic hence the parties in the middle doing well at GE

Ideology usually loses voters - eg Corbyn

At this point a party who deals with bread and butter stuff rather than provoking emotional reactions could be good

I think Blair did well with the education, education line - something that appealed to me personally but since then Labour has lost that ability . As seen in last GE.

I don’t know who will win the next one but I’m pretty sure Starmer will go to the centre again. I find his policies head line rather than sensible (charity status for schools for example is going to increase state sector when it’s already strained) and need reassurance in taxing wealth that it will work and isn’t just a way to appeal on same grounds

Blair was good as he did the optimism thing well without the penury to high earners

Although not entirely of course with the war and PFI figures on here seem sky high, but he managed to take the country with him, initially anyway, build it up and not talk it down. The U.K. has a lot going for it and it benefits from that positivity

most South & Central American countries are far right

That's incorrect, a lot have gone Left now

if the US hadn't sanctioned Cuba for decades, they'd be better than they are

It's interesting how some manage to find a way to blame conservative views for every world ailment, but there you go...

Although not entirely of course with the war and PFI figures on here seem sky high, but he managed to take the country with him, initially anyway, build it up and not talk it down. The U.K. has a lot going for it and it benefits from that positivity

Blair had the advantage of taking over at a time when the UK was a low ebb, he increased spending and had the world economic cycle on his side, so low inflation, decent growth, high pay rises, relatively low bills (for the majority)
We also saw the end of the IRA (mostly) inward investment, boom in tourism, low cost flights, huge boost in life sciences... We felt good about the future.

Thats not the case now.

Whoever wins the Tory party battle (which is really about who can convince us they ve not been in for the last 12 years) and/or the next GE, has a huge task in front of them, not one i envy.

most South & Central American countries are far right

That's incorrect, a lot have gone Left now

Presumably migrants who can now vote came to the US long ago?
Wonder why there pop. rejected the far right?

if the US hadn't sanctioned Cuba for decades, they'd be better than they are

It's interesting how some manage to find a way to blame conservative views for every world ailment, but there you go...

Lol so that fact that both Democrat and Republican Govts sanctioned Cuba has zero effect..... best tell that one to the World and sanctions on Russia then.

Its only you that mentions Left Right on this, the reality is it isn't, both parties in the US are right of centre.

Blair very much had the global cycle on his side, I did suggest this on another thread and it didn’t go down well. I think the US was benefitting similarly and then of course suffered the crash built in the back if it, as did we.

However we need a way to feel better about the U.K., imo it has suffered from this self loathing narrative over last few years

The party who wins the next GE will be facing a much worse global outlook than Blair did, especially if the war is still going, but taking people with you is still key. And not creating pockets of dislike - eg against tax payers whom we need.

I think Blair did this well - looking at his landslide - he didn’t demonise payers into the tax system but at same time lower earners felt he offered opportunity

Latin America tends to flip-flop. Brazil alternates between Bolsonaro and Lula da Silva, and neither has delivered clean effective government. Venezuela has created a refugee wave all its very own thanks to Chavez squandering oil revenues like the Perons. Mexico is violent and corrupt; ditto Bolivia. Chile and Ecuador are fairly competently run, currently. Argentina should function better than it does given its innate resources. Costa Rica is developing its eco-tourism very thoughtfully with an eye on the long term. Panama is cultivating an image as a good base for retirement, with tax advantages. Dominica functions reasonably; Haiti doesn't. Uruguay and Paraguay I know little about, except that a friend enjoyed Montevideo as a city. Same of the remaining NE Atlantic countries.

The US Latino population is hard to pigeonhole because of its diversity, but a lot of Latin Americans immigrants (especially Cubans in Florida) have been there since the 60s, and are established as the rising forces in politics, business and the law, so far mostly at State level. But as the Latino population dwarfs the African-American, both Republicans and Democrats are courting their votes. I read somewhere that the USA is forecast to be 50:50 by language come 2050.

MarshaBradyo's comment that we need to lose the self-abnegation and loathing, and simultaneously eschew exceptionalism and jingoism is spot on.

@XingMing I agree. It's going to take a big cultural shift though, starting with our press which seems to thrive financially on stoking division. And that is across the entire political spectrum.

Lot I appreciate your answer but I recall a post re electric being cheaper which HS2 will be - there’s a poster who knows more Draig I think, apologies if I got this wrong

That's very interesting, I hadn't appreciated the existing Birmingham route wasn't electric. Am I right in thinking the east coast line is?

Is therefore the premise of HS2 that it wouldn't be practical to introduce an electric line while still running it? In other words, too disruptive on current track?

I think the pandemic has caused a fairly fundamental shift in remote working. But there's definite environmental benefits in encouraging train travel.

I really hope they return the Chilterns to something that resembles its previous state. Particularly the town-like complex they've built near Denham. The tree protesters have gone recently so I guess it's full steam ahead.

I ve just listened to Ken Clarks assessment on the economy and what needs to be done.
Targeted help, reduce/limit those going into poverty, no tax cuts until inflation dealt with.
Absolutely spot on and what i ve been saying for an age, these views from Clark doesn't make him from the hard left or even left but apparently those who have been saying this on here are "Lefties"

Self loathing? don't see that all but if you want to improve then going around saying "We are the best at X Y or Z" will not improve anything.

This is what we hear far too much off, best football league, best justice system, world leading NHS.... etc etc

One thing we are world leading on is Life Sciences (in conjunction with Europe) but what are we intent on doing? wrecking this sector, silence from most Conservative supporters.

We are not the worst by any means but to improve, one needs to have an element of self awareness and self critic, most importantly, learning from the very best.

You forgot “world beating” @AndreaC67 😂

Self loathing? don't see that all

I know some people won’t see it but maybe they’re part of it.

I find it infuriating and I’m not looking at it from U.K. perspective but more from o/s one. I moved here due to attraction of London. Other big cities would have been good too but London has worked out well,

The U.K. has loads going for it - culture, science, arts, development, sports. Admittedly the pandemic shut a lot of what is good down tg it’s back now.

It doesn’t have to be best or world beating all the time just not the level of moaning and U.K. is ‘laughing stock’ rubbish that you generally see on SM

It is possible to enjoy and acknowledge the good stuff without always mooning over EU

We need to lose the self-abnegation and loathing,

We really do. It's good to be encouraging a tolerant and diverse society but I think some of the navel gazing and self-hatred has gone too far at times.

We have a lot to offer, both individually and as a society, and I think some positivity might help us pull together to get out of the recession and address some of the wider public issues.

I've chatted to a lot of different people from Europe and North America over the last few months. They don't see the U.K. as a crap hole and a joke.

Perhaps we should also celebrate the good parts of living in the U.K, particularly in terms of the opportunities and freedom for women.

@MarshaBradyo - what nationality are you Marsha? It makes a difference because it's easy to be here as say an American or an Australian and not see what so many Brits have lost in this situation- because those options were not there for you . businesses, business issues, family issues, retiring elsewhere, short term contracts in EU .

If you are from the EU- well you haven't really lost anything at all

Have those people actually been here recently? One of my friends recently returned from Germany having lived there for about seven years. She’s absolutely appalled at how down at heel and shabby the UK is now by comparison. My SiL who’s lived in Germany her entire adult life said the same when she was in N Ireland a few weeks ago.

Anecdote is pointless as evidence because everyone’s anecdata is different.

Crikey I’m dual Aus / UK

I voted remain and at the time I felt so strongly about staying in, I was that London type remainer whose sector is diverse (so I’d say most were remain) and I was so wedded to that view

But I’ve started to think about climate issues, mass migration and the way Aus deals with its border. I’m wondering what changes we’ll see in the next couple of decades as resources become scarcer, places become more uninhabitable and citizens demand security.

I was so sure re remain but the way Aus has shifted to left whilst keeping border policy has made me think a bit more

Yet another little dig? You can't help yourself can you.

You are well off, M/C with great access to the many things you mention, you re in London for starters and can afford to attend, where they are not subsidised.

Most people don't have access to sports facilities, culture & arts, they meaningless to them.

As for the UK being an international laughing stock? Not overall by any means but Johnson and Brexit most definitely.

Which is why the Tories have got rid of him and why it won't be long before we will reverse many aspects of Brexit, we will be forced too.

Still no criticism for the lack of Horizon co-op.

@MarshaBradyo Just so you know I'm with you on border control- the UK has handled it very badly over the years, there were far more controls available to us that were never used, including within the EU, and it's come back to bite the UK on the arse. we've just come back from living in Denmark and even for EU citizens it's quite strict. You can't just remain indefinitely without registering

The thing is by being in the EU these issues would have become clear to many of the countries, not just the UK , France and Germany , Scandinavia etc and I think certain things and rules would have changed anyway if climate change/resources were becoming an issue.

The thing is you have an option to return to Oz if you wished- many people here now have zero option to go anywhere else - Oz also has 'enhanced preferred country ' within EU, much easier to stay and look for a job -- the UK doesn't have this because we haven't offered it to EU citizens

Most people don't have access to sports facilities, culture & arts, they meaningless to them.

You don’t need to go to the stadium. I watched Wimbledon at home, Euros and World Cup, enjoyed it a lot and posted with others who felt the same.It was a nice break from the mn gloom

Many galleries are free, even outside London. If people have zero interest in arts that’s up to them but people get enjoyment from other things - watching football as a ticket holder or not. I’d say calling that group of things you listed as meaningless is missing a huge amount of what people enjoy.

I do see some posters who only say good things about EU but zero re U.K. it must be exhausting to see little that is good about where you live. Or maybe there are things people like but just don’t post about it - I hope so.

@MarshaBradyo it's easier to think good things here if you are ok for money , can eat well and live somewhere nice with a lot going on - I think there are lots of good things about the UK- it's culture and sport and varied scenery for a start- but from a business angle in particular it's really not good. It's causing logistical problems, staff shortages and high inflation(although Ukraine is mixed in with that too)

It's the equivalent @MarshaBradyo to
Me saying- well you can keep the Oz passport--- but your UK one doesn't apply anymore, so next time you come here we will treat you as a 3rd country national and you will need visas to live and work and fit our specific rules on living and working here . We had in effect a European passport pre Brexit -

Crikey I do have sympathy for your position, I’m not sure if you mentioned what type of business it is but it is natural that if your income has been impacted you won’t have wanted that.

Inflation is mostly global energy prices and staff shortages are in many other countries. It’s a post pandemic issue whereby lower earners moved on, even Aus has this too.

Denmark is interesting, I don’t know much about it but had gathered it was quite strict on borders too

Lastly I don’t see those as equivalent. I voted remain, was annoyed when we lost but it’s no where near equivalent to anyone stripping me of a citizenship and passport.

But I appreciate impacting someone’s business is tough, I felt the same during pandemic about livelihoods. Where it’ll go in the next couple of decades is up for change, and has made me think beyond fixed remain view (and I was probably the most remain person you could meet, or one of them)

To be honest Marsha- I could live perfectly well with EEA type membership, all a bit pointless but hey ho- but I don't think what is effectively a 'no deal at all' relationship is actually benefitting anyone apart from seriously rich and maybe certain low paid in shortage occupation areas and I think that will be short term as I genuinely believe this gvt will bring in 'work for benefits' -