To feel angry at Tory voters?

[Dottodo]

DF has always voted Tory. He’s very anti immigration and we will never see each other’s POV.
DHs friends are all Tory voters and hate being with them as they are all racist, xenophobic & misogynistic.
Other Tory voters I know through work or extended family members are also xenophobic and casually racist.
I’ve spoken to friends about this and they agree that the Tory voters they personally know are also racist and xenophobic.
Why is this?
Me and DH lived abroad and as we've lived as ‘foreigners’, we don’t share their views.

I'm not sure how many people really think that everyone starts from the same place or doesn't understand that there are people with disadvantages.

Even most conservatives in western countries believe there needs to be a health care system, an education system, that works for all. There are different ideas about what works best, and it's really not at all clear that the best systems are the ones that are the most completely socialized and government run. But the reason most people think that is because they see those are areas that make a huge difference to what those with disadvantages can achieve.

Most conservatives however also think that if you create systems of dependence on it, it ultimately disempowers people and undermines important forms of community resilience. So there is a balance to be struck and it is not always simple. And then at another level, when people are dependent on an entity like the state, or equally a corporation, they are at the mercy of that organization in a way that is ultimately politically dangerous and also dehumanizing.

I watched an interesting film the other day about black conservatibes in the US, and I was really struck by the way many of them percieved the approach of the Democratic party. They felt that the DP was happy to give black Americans a certain amount of state support, so long as they remained in some kind of underclass position and dependent (apart from a few token examples) so they would continue to vote Democrat and not contest other types of Democratic policies. And they say this as a continuation of earlier DP policies like Jim Crowe laws, which also looked to use the black community to gain votes in another way.

Which is to say, they saw the actions of the left, the DP, as purposefully maintaining policies that damaged their ability to better themselves.

Now whether or not you think that analysis is correct, I think it gives some window into how people can think quite differently about what kind of social policy creates opportunities for people to thrive,

Excellent post.

Mangyinseam I also agree with your post. I doubt many Conservative voters object to the safety net of a benefits system for those unable to work or make ends meet.

But there also needs to be a financial reward for people who work hard and study to improve their career prospects. I understand that not all kids have the same opportunities to work at school and that wealth is a key factor in educational achievement. Equally we provide free education, albeit of a differing standard, and that provides opportunity.

see plenty of kids who can't be bothered to work at school and seem surprised when their only option is a minimum wage job. I also know lots of kids whose parents emigrated to the U.K. and education/aspiration is highly valued and they work their socks off.

I'm not heartless. We pay half of our household income in tax, which, put bluntly, is a decent sum of money. I think that's enough. I think the government could spend their money better at times, particularly when I see some of the procedures the NHS funds and schemes such as HS2. I'm also a firm believer in taking responsibility for your own career prospects and limiting government intervention and bureaucracy where possible.

And before the pile on comes my way, I know some people work very long hours for the minimum wage. My brother is in this category.

@lot123 Apart from your first sentence, i agree with you.

I was that lazy kid who got a mw job but then realised i needed to educate myself and with completely free and in some cases, paid state support, i got O levels and then a HND, which then led to a well paid career.

That help has been totally removed, a younger me would have stayed working in that low paid job, as i just wouldn't have been able to afford to stop work & at that time, been unable to see the long term benefits of FE.

BUT & here is the rub, society will not function unless there are large numbers of people who do these MW jobs.... so how do we square that circle?

NHS confederation says we have 100k NHS staff shortages and an amazing 165k shortages of Care workers.

Up the pay of Care workers and they then will be on an hourly rate similar to a newly qualified nurse etc but without a substantial loan to pay back or staff parking to pay, let alone the responsibility levels.

I don't know how any Govt is going to sort this mess out, public pay freezes have caused a headache for us all.

@MangyInseam @lot123 I agree with you both

Imo half is a lot and psychologically where people feel that a limit has been met in terms of paying the state.

I see criticism of HS2 a lot but also of trains in U.K. not being as good as some EU countries (of course it’s mn everything in EU is paved with gold) but on this isn’t it better we improve trains here? Iirc it’s electric so on environmental levels a better way to travel.

I agree generally that dependency on state isn’t always a positive. And a huge state isn’t either - Covid was abnormal times but that level of state intervention created some dependency which we’re now moving away from. Although some sectors still do the we need help, when actually it is their problem to solve.

@MeanderingGently

Yes, typical tory voter attitude. It's all about individual. Whats innit for me

But you should look at the broader picture. What's best for society? We cant all be entrepreneurs. We need teachers, nhs, refuse workers, public transport to keep civilised society functioning

We need policies to look after others not just our own needs

I see criticism of HS2 a lot but also of trains in U.K. not being as good as some EU countries (of course it’s mn everything in EU is paved with gold) but on this isn’t it better we improve trains here? Iirc it’s electric so on environmental levels a better way to travel

No one who has used EU railways can not be impressed with a: their cost or b their efficiency and coverage.
So not sure why you have to have a dig at this?
Some things are better, some are worse.

Having a very short length of HS in a relatively small country doesn't improve the lot of the many commuter lines that need urgent up grade or the astronomical fares.
Its 50% to drive to London (Cornwall, for 4 of us), park, pay for all the tube fares, have a meal than it is to take the train.

The environmental damage the building of this track is immense, not too mention the cost, £110 billion and rising.

Yes I am about individuals being rewarded. That's capitalism in essence. I went to state schools, worked my arse off to get the best grades I could, qualified as an accountant post university and that opened up a highly paid job in investment banking.

My parents didn't pull any strings or have any experience of that industry. It was down to me as an individual. I contributed to society as a whole through the tax I paid, and all the trickle-down effects of spending on local goods and services.

If the high earners paying 50% of their salary in income tax (plus more on other forms of tax) isn't enough, I think we need to ask why? One factor is an ageing population but it must be more than that. I'm not convinced that all public money is spent wisely. Honestly, when I see the amount we pay in tax, I'm not keen to pay more. I doubt most people would be in their heart of hearts.

In response to the post about needing minimum wage workers, I agree with what you say. That's a tough one. Not everyone can be a high earner.

^100%

Your typical Tory only care about themselves until they don't and then they moan like xxxx because they can't get state help.

See the moaning about GPs or the state of the NHS/social Care... They voted for the run down of these services but when they need them... it becomes "Labour ruined it all....."

People don’t pay half income in tax without thinking about society, it’s fairly obvious a big chunk is going to the state.

There’s seems to be an idea people paying in are morally worse than those taking out. Yet we need people to pay the tax burden for all the services you list. It’s not out of thin air.

See the moaning about GPs or the state of the NHS/social Care... They voted for the run down of these services but when they need them... it becomes "Labour ruined it all....."

I don't think Labour ruined the NHS but I think the NHS no longer works in its current state.

There's been some very interesting MN threads on this recently and the consensus was that the part state-private healthcare systems in France and Germany provided better patient care. I also have friends who are NHS consultants so I hear a fair amount about the issues they face.

And the greens / other are protesting against the new nuclear site at the same time people laud the French for having nuclear

We either want better trains that lower vehicle demand or energy security or not. If we do it takes time, interruption and money.

There…

Its your locals in Suffolk who don't want a Nuclear power station and with good reason & they wont be lauding the french either.

I spent a lot of time at Hinkley, the disruption (lasting years) is immense.

I think the Tory idea, now dropped, of providing discounted rates to those effected would be a great idea, be that for on shore wind/solar or nuclear.

110 billlion would transform local services, esp if the railways were more state owned, instead of taking profits away, often to subsidise european networks.

Of course it’s going to disrupt the location in which it’s built. But if people keep demanding we have better trains like EU and nuclear like the French it’s not going to magically appear. Time, disruption and money.

Who said otherwise?

Why not incentivise locals with cheaper travel/bills? (i can't win, i support a Tory policy or a former one)

But you ve (as a HS2 supporter) not answered the fundamental point i asked "How does a short section of track costing 110 billion, help congested and expensive commuter lines"

I'm not particularly unbiased as the HS2 construction is through our local area. My goodness, it's brutal.

I think the money would have been better spent improving west to east services in the north (I say this as a southerner). There's already a decent service from Marylebone to Birmingham so I'm not sure the reduction in journey time justifies the cost. I'm also not convinced that the London to Birmingham service is a more popular/problematic route than the others.

I've travelled on some European trains this year. Swiss trains are great but not cheap either. Italian trains weren't great for punctuality but were really cheap. Other than one from the airport to the local shipping centre 5 minutes away which cost £10 per ticket.

I enjoy travelling by train but it's bloody expensive. It cost me over £200 for a day return from London to Manchester a few weeks ago. I wonder whether the double decker type trains they have in Europe might expand capacity and help to reduce prices?

*shopping

@pigeonstreet123 You ask an important question: what IS best for society?

And answers will vary based on the respondee's perspective.

I take @AndreaC67's point that the post-school route to a better life via further education has largely been dismantled, or requires the student to quit work and/or pay fees. Education needs better resources and more money without question, but the massive long-term investment involved has to be treated as a capital expense in the national long-term interest. There must be a better funded route for students to return to education or to learn necessary trade skills. As a SME, we see the dearth of such skills in people under 40, and those who have paid fees / served apprenticeships quite sensibly want to earn and keep the rewards, without sharing them upward.

It's egregious that London schools receive so much more per capita than rural schools, where the issues are different but equally damaging to individual prospects. Leafy suburban comprehensives in the Southeast perform well; nobody in their right mind would turn down a place at Peter Symonds. This is in large part because of more affluent catchments and earnings are closely related to intellect, which is highly heritable. See all the twin studies.

On health, it's starting to dawn on the public that the NHS may not be the correct model for delivering absolutely everything desirable and recognition that the shared public/insurance route used in France, Germany and Australia delivers better outcomes WITHOUT leaving older, poorer, less-healthy people unable to get the care they need. As someone said above, there have been several reasoned threads on the NHS recently.

You can be conservative (small c) and believe that these two in particular are the building blocks of a stable, prosperous democracy. Such views are perfectly compatible with being a decent human being. But it's a delicate and moveable edge between societal and individual responsibility.

Society needs all kinds of people driving it, including people who take risks and get financial reward. That incentive means we get new developments all the time. It helps employment and generates profits to tax.

Some see that as individualism and inherently bad but I think that would be foolish.

Lot I appreciate your answer but I recall a post re electric being cheaper which HS2 will be - there’s a poster who knows more Draig I think, apologies if I got this wrong

Which is to say, they saw the actions of the left, the DP, as purposefully maintaining policies that damaged their ability to better themselves

Similar to what happens with some Hispanic communities in the US (e.g. in Florida). They are leaning far(ish) Right as they don't want to see a repeat of the regimes they are escaping from to take over in the US.

@XingMing I agree with all your post (I'm very much in the centre politically) that's why having lived there I like the Scandinavian way. High wages, high tax but Denmark was remarkably capitalist , however it had great social underpinning for the 'necessities' including childcare, utilities, social rent , transport. How you spent the rest of it was up to you but it was 'non necessities to survive' If you put more effort in , worked longer hours or were a successful entrepreneur, you were still far wealthier than others. Germany is similar as is Netherlands

I personally agree with Germanys policy on health , you do pay in to a scheme (unless unable to do so and that is allowed for and protected) but that is ringfenced money and allows for much better care. We aren't talking US levels of payment, it's at reality level. The problem with funding via NI and general taxation is that tax levels are not high here relative to elsewhere and NI is not ringfenced , money can be used for all sorts and is- so if the country is short of cash it shows and is reflected in healthcare, services, roads etc

I'm anti high speed 2 - it's being built for a lifestyle that has now changed for money. There is nothing wrong with the current route and times and far less commuting going on and far more zooms etc than meetings - the money would be better spent on west to east line, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, York, Newcastle etc - which at the moment is slow and expensive

See @XingMing Its as someone said up thread, we are, mostly, reasonable people and want the best for society.... we can come together.

To me, it appears that its our political parties that act on ideology.

The voters, perhaps are are little more pragmatic.