To feel angry at Tory voters?

[Dottodo]

DF has always voted Tory. He’s very anti immigration and we will never see each other’s POV.
DHs friends are all Tory voters and hate being with them as they are all racist, xenophobic & misogynistic.
Other Tory voters I know through work or extended family members are also xenophobic and casually racist.
I’ve spoken to friends about this and they agree that the Tory voters they personally know are also racist and xenophobic.
Why is this?
Me and DH lived abroad and as we've lived as ‘foreigners’, we don’t share their views.

I think most people would have accepted an EEA membership, even if it would have seemed a bit pointless. I don't think I'd be thinking about Brexit very much now, if that had been the case.
But Brexit has precisely taken away from us citizenship and passport. Since we are no longer EU citizens we lose all the working/ residence rights that had been ours automatically. My work brings me into contact with people who are often looking for jobs in the EU - and it is so, so much harder for them if they are competing with people who have EU passports, which is often one of the criteria. Why would an EU business want to bother with the extra admin and hassle of employing a Brit who doesn't have an EU passport, when they've got people from 27 other countries without those issues? They don't. The availability of work is much, much smaller.

EEA includes free movement of people doesn’t it?

I don’t think it would be much change or point if it’s largely the same

I don’t know why the points system isn’t used more to our advantage for skills. I admit we are used to it in Aus and it’s part of the national psyche by now as a way to benefit the country;

the way Australia has shifted to left whilst keeping border policy has made me think a bit more

Why do you think Australia has swung to the left? Was it extreme lockdown fatigue?

Great to see some reasoned debate in the last few pages of this goady thread. How many times has the OP been back? Imagine starting a thread entitled to be Angry at Labour Voters. No wonder she has not been back.

Apin the Labor states had very long lockdowns so I think not related to that

imo it was green policy. Aus has extreme weather events and those fires which highlight the real impact. Labor went in stronger on renewables iirc and moving away from coal etc. People are likely worried about impact on next generation

We are a bit different here, apart from 40 degree day recently it’s not so much on agenda and both parties seem to have similar approach. Cons re-routing through tax breaks and incentives for large companies and building nuclear, it’s not so stark

Labor went in stronger on renewables iirc and moving away from coal etc

Interesting. I wonder how farmers will fare there over these green policies. I've seen they are being very negatively impacted in Canada and the Netherlands

Yes - EEA does include freedom of movement. I agree there wouldn't be much point, but since I struggle to see much of the point anyway, to me that would be so much better. I also think that that would have been the most democratic option for a vote that was so close. The government opting for such a hard Brexit when 48% of those who voted wanted to remain is very unfair. 17.4 million out of 66 million should not have been enough to warrant what we've ended up with.
The points system is all very well, except that actually we need people to come in and take up jobs in roles that might not score well under such a system, but are still hugely valuable.

The government opting for such a hard Brexit when 48% of those who voted wanted to remain is very unfair

But if it had been the other way round I doubt Remainers would have made any concessions to accommodate the concerns Brexiteers have. So maybe think of it that way.

@apintortwo it was pointed out very many times to Brexiters that the issues around not knowing who was in the country/being unable to deport EU nationals who were not working could have been resolved if the UK had bothered. Many EU countries have ID cards and demand local registration in order for someone to receive services from their local council - the systems exist.

But the UK chose to do nothing. I'd have been perfectly happy with the introduction of a simple ID card system (though not the bloated data gobbling monstrosity Labour were proposing!)

I also suspect most Remainers would have been perfectly happy to see a clamp down on companies and organisations who were failing to pay NMW. Workers' rights and all that good stuff.

Which things do you think there would have been no concessions on?

It’s not going to work to have FOM and EEA as a kind of fudge. It’s that issue that’s the sticking point.

There we’re other moments that I think are more a shame, Cameron for one, not having a higher number for change, and not taking it as advisory - but once all those things were accepted Brexit happened and FOM a key part of it.

Well Farage said that a 52/48 result would definitely be unfinished business and I don't know that there wouldn't have been any concessions if Remain had won. It would have taken someone very diplomatic and gifted to handle it and May certainly wasn't that person. The whole discourse descended so quickly into vitriol and slagging the other side off that positions became far more polarised than they needed to be.
I haven't got the answers about the fudge being unsatisfactory - I can see that if I were a Leaver I probably would think it was BRINO and might feel cheated.
I accept that professions that were undercut by EU workers might now feel that they are better off - that is a good thing, though the same outcome could have been achieved without all the damage.
I can't see how anyone could point to anything that there is for Remainers except for loss and damage. To be berated for minding about those losses and that damage, effectively told to shut up and to emigrate for minding really just rubs salt into the wound.
I agree that some dreadful things have been said to some Leavers and that these have not been deserved.
I have never seen the country so divided and don't know how we move forward. Being able to have reasonable debate here and seeing that we do actually agree on quite a lot helps.

With EEA, FOM is different to the EU's FOM in that they can apply an emergency brake, only once done and it might mean losses in other areas but it was talked about after 2016 "Norway+" ... this is what i understand the position to be with EEA.
Norway seems happy with this arrangement but as the French pointed out, its our labour market i.e very easy to work in the black economy, that makes the UK so attractive.

With around 400k long term unemployed (mostly unskilled) but many more vacancies to be filled, we need something or our economy will never grow.

Pts based system might work but so far hasn't, i mean why pay a fortune to come here but then not be allowed to move/study/travel/work freely in 27 other countries?

Well the last folk standing around here now are definitely reasonable... why can't the politicians see it? At times like this, while we despair about polarisation, I hope fervently that someone at party HQ is reading along and brings it to all the leaders' attention.

I don't know how Cameron sleeps at night. Alec Salmond asked David Lidington as Leader of the House about ensuring safeguards such as a supermajority. 'No, no' bleated Lidington - 'it's not as if anyone is going to act on the result. It's just advisory.' And then bloody, bloody Cameron takes it upon himself to promise the nation to implement the result and not a single MP from any party points out the problem.
And then we discover that if the referendum had been binding, it would have been declared null and void under the Vienna Convention because of the evidence of so much illegality, but because it was advisory there was nothing there that could be done.
I can't just move on from all that, when I think it's done so much harm, and I can't imagine how difficult it must be for people who've lost businesses in consequence.

Then that would have been equally wrong, with such a divisive referendum (which should never have happened in the way it did) compromise should have been sought whoever "won" dismissing concerns of millions was unwise.... but remember the saying "Divided and conquer......

I would have liked to see FOM become FOL (Freedom of Labour) with some self funding rules put in for retirees wishing to go abroad

And I completely agree with @AndreaC74 (?) about the appalling treatment of the sciences right now too. Another shot in our foot.

Sorry but there are two Andrea's here. Confuses me, as I'm a bear with a small brain!

i mean why pay a fortune to come here but then not be allowed to move/study/travel/work freely in 27 other countries?

If you apply to go to Australia for instance, that country should be enough, and the same happens for the UK. Why should it be essential to have access to 27 additional countries?

Agree. The U.K. is attractive enough and you can still holiday in EU. People move to big cities like London or elsewhere due to a variety of reasons.

I know people are really down on U.K. but as someone who did it I know it’s not as much an issue people think. So many of my peers moved too. We didn’t choose France or wherever but thought London better. Then again Aus aren’t great at languages generally

We are meant to have visas coming in for top university graduates which would be excellent. Nothing like the excitement of trying to make it in a big city when young.

Points system can be really useful for skills but I’m not sure where that’s at.

Plus I see a lot of criticism re productivity so presumably same people would like higher automation and skilled economy

pointythings

Would you care to share your views on the recent Dutch farmers' protests?

A national government being forced to disadvantage and impoverish their own people in order to appease and comply with a requirement from an unelected central body is exactly what many Brexit voters wanted to avoid. I'm sure the issue is complex over there but it can give you some perspective

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62335287

In May 2019, the Council of State ruled the government's strategy for reducing excess nitrogen breached EU directives on preserving vulnerable habitats

If you apply to go to Australia for instance, that country should be enough, and the same happens for the UK. Why should it be essential to have access to 27 additional countries?

I agree. There's also some good international exchange programmes between the U.K. and overseas universities. I'd love to have spent a year of my degree in the US or Aus.

@AndreaC67 FOM always was FOL!

@apintortwo the Dutch farming industry is one of the highest producers of pollutants in the EU. There needs to be drastic change. I'm Dutch (living in the UK), but I refuse to buy Dutch meat because of the low (EU minimum) welfare standards applied - the intensive farming methods used are incredibly bad for the environment. We can argue about the methods, but those farmers need to make changes for the sake of the planet and so far they have been completely recalcitrant. I'm with the EU on this one. We need to rear higher welfare meat and eat a hell of a lot less of it.

And give over with the 'Unelected' bullshit. That's Brexiter nonsense - you know full well that the people who design the policies are civil servants - and UK civil servants are also not elected - and that the politicians who decide which policies to implement are elected - by PR no less, which is arguably more democratic than the UK's FPTP system.

I value the freedom of movement across the EU, not least because it offers people the opportunity to learn new languages while working at the same time. Just going to the US or Aus is less diverse, I think. But the two options needn’t be mutually exclusive. They never used to be.

@lot123 now you sound like an old codger whinging about why people need all those TV channels because back in the good old days they made do with BBC 1 and 2. It isn't the point that Australia or the US ought to be 'enough' - it's that something good that offered opportunities has been thrown away and that many of today's young people who are affected didn't get a say in that.

DS is currently intermitting a break from university but is investigating doing the final year of his degree overseas, provided everything else works. Probably in NZ, if his academic points can be transferred. Not a linguist, so it needs to be Anglophone. A good school in the US costs eye-watering amounts if it's funded by UK earned income. All these broadening experiences should be encouraged.

The loss of Erasmus and the close down in scientific exchanges is much lamented. It impoverishes the whole eco-system.