Ukrainian guest …I’m not feeling comfortable

[CookieDoughKid]

I’ve been hosting a Ukrainian mother and 15yo daughter since beginning of May. We get on ok although we live very different lives even before the war. She’s a SAhM and I’m a working mum full time. It’s been difficult for her to adjust because her husband used to do everything, such as banking, booking train tickets, appointments. It’s been a real learning curve having to stand on her own feet here. Fortunately she can speak some English so over time, I have been able to take a step back from supporting her on how to live in England. her dd will be taking GCSE exams next summer term.

My kids and her dd don’t like each other and don’t get on. The mother is a bit work shy in that she is very choosy about jobs being offered to her by the job agency. She does a week here or there. Nothing permanent or full time. She is not claiming UC after it was made apparent she would have to look for work or go back to work full time. Her husband is supporting her financially. I broached the subject of long term accommodation and the challenges of finding rent. I was surprised to learn they have 10000 USD saved, husband has a good job in software in Ukraine. They are prepared to rent but would rather not as they don’t want to ‘waste their money’. I know they’d rather go back home if the war was over.

I had pledged at the start to give them half of the £350 thank you money from Gov to be used as a deposit for their rent when they move on. That’s £150 a month I would give to them for the 12 months commitment. I keep £150. I know I don’t have to do it but I wanted them to feel like they have some longevity here without too much hardship. That was prior to me learning about their savings. With everything going on at home, me working full time, my two teens…I’m finding it all a bit much. The mother is lovely but so talkative and she’s always there. Sand my day is incredibly busy, I travel for work, I have my own children to look after.

what gripes me is that she also doesn’t pay a single thing or offer when I’ve said from the start she needs to sort it herself I’m talking about washing powder and sundries….she does pay her own food. I’m starting to resent the fact that she never offers to pay for dishwasher tablets, stationery paper, toilet roll, cling film, aluminium foil, washing powder, cleaning goods, kitchen napkins etc… It all adds up.

Come October, it will have been 6 months of me hosting. Would I be unreasonable to ask her to plan on moving out …I think I can tolerate them living with me to Jan 2023 (that would be 9 months in total) but she’s mentioned she wants to stay with me till next June so that her dd can sit her exams without interruption.

Should I ask for a household contribution? And what about the £150 a month I pledged? It’s not that I can’t afford it, I can but I feel I’m being taken for a ride.

she mentioned she wanted help in applying for UC housing benefit in the future which does not sit well with me knowing she is supported by her husband, has savings and is choosy with jobs?

fwiw, we both try very hard to get on. She’s helpful sith cleaning and so am I, and we have a good rhythm in sharing the kitchen etc. we don’t argue and we haven’t had any major spats.

it’s just that I am finding it hard to live with someone who is so different in outlook to me and living with us full stop. My dad was a refugee, he held down 3 jobs 7 days a week for a while and that work ethic is very strong in me (I don’t rely on my husband financially and never have but that’s my choice). I know if I was to live with someone not out of choice I would work really hard, and try to move out as soon as possible!

would like your perspective on this. I feel really guilty even thinking about asking her to move out but also, I feel they would have had 8 or 9 months free living so..isn’t that generous in itself?

Exactly.

You aren't allowed to say that there are problems and some people are taking the piss 'cos trauma'. Equally on the other hand you have people saying 'what did you expect. We told you so'. And when people are struggling and asking for support they are being told 'suck it up'. Which helps precisely no one and is more likely to end up with relationships breaking down in an explosive uncontrolled manner. This results in both hosts and guests being fucked.

It is utter bollocks. And utterly unfair.

There are good people getting screwed for helping.

There are people in need getting screwed by dodgy hosts.

There is such one dimensional thinking here.

If people are struggling with guests, then they probably have valid reason under the circumstances. I know many hosts are burning out from the demands - and some of them are coming directly from guests who are inconsiderate and selfish rather than simply traumatised or facing culture shock. Cos thats a typical human trait unfortunately.

There is such a range of people coming here. There is such a range of people hosting.

There is no consensus about how to handle anything. The £350 thing is a good example - there is no consistency.

Some people are dead keen to settle. Some people are taking advantage of the situation for their financial benefit - perhaps because they feel so insecure - but this is not necessarily without it having an impact on hosts at their expense which is unfair. Some people are getting overly comfortable at hosts goodwill, which is well meaning, but this has become an expectation rather than realising it has limitation for various reasons. Hosts are in some cases under extreme financial stress which isn't adequately being acknowledged 'because you get £350' (yes when?!) or top of the responsibility of navigating the system for all this admin. Guests don't speak the language, and can eventually start to hide behind this, because its easier. Guests can be extremely depressed and traumatised and hosts cannot get their heads around this. Some though have seen it as an opportunity that they otherwise wouldn't have ever had. Every situation is unique and complex.

Its dead easy to jump up and down saying 'but trauma, won't you think of what the refugees have been through' or 'well what did you expect. Of course the government is shit'.

Meanwhile in the middle are a bunch of people actually living this rather than it being a theoretical because they tried to do something positive for once rather than just sitting on their hands, because people were dying and homeless...

The stigma of saying 'ive done as much as i can, but there is a problem here' is awful. There isn't much support from the council if theres problems. Its a pretty brave thing to actually admit its going tits up tbh...

Uc won’t let her apply with that amount in savings, you can have more then 6,000 gbp so she would need to get the money from her husband or if she did manage to get through with uc and it came out about her savings she would be in trouble for fraud. I understand you have different situations and she is learning but she is taking the mick. I am a sahm and became homeless last year for a year and had to stay with relatives, it wasn’t nice and I couldn’t wait to have my own place. I also had to pay out for sundries and food and petrol/travel etc. I would state that staying with you is not the long term plan and I’m presuming the money ends next April in which you will be supporting her for free after then? Or do you still receive any money. Maybe see if there is an agency that can offer advice in the situation that would explain to her that living with you isn’t long term but also going back to Ukraine isn’t on the cards just yet.

Families who have done better, have tended to have been able to get kids in school quickly. Where its not been possible to get a quick entry, there's been more problems. This comes a lot down to having routine which provides a framework and stability for all concerned, plus there being outside pastoral care. The 6 week summer holiday worries me for this reason: you have parents (potentially boths guests and hosts) but the kids don't have that routine. Thats going to be a natural strain.

Our local authority has been shit with school entry. They got the first arrivers in very quickly. Then it went shit. There is supposed to be a decision within 10 working days. Then the council decided this was a month. Then the schools fannied about even after a place was given as they didn't want the kids in before the summer... This hasn't been with out consequences.

The situation is even worse for the 16 to 18 year old group. There isn't a clear path for this age group. There are only a couple of places they can go and both have been shocking in responding quickly (at all) to enquiries. The council meanwhile want to shove all the Ukrainians onto one course regardless of how accessible it is or whether its relevant to their ability / ambitions. 'Cos Ukrainian' (now thats racist - just like the job centre who were shoving everyone on an esol course 'cos Ukrainian' without assessing their english level and whether the course was actually suitable for them).

Saying the council are too busy to deal with this isn't good enough, because ignoring the problems has only led to massive issues further down because of the knock on effects. This could have been dealt with and tackled early on.

The whole 'not my department / responsibility' attitude has amplified the stress on hosts.

I think every host I've spoken to has said the first couple of weeks has felt like being hit by a bus. Its unsustainable to carry on for many. I don't think guests are often aware of just how much pressure hosts have on them - things just get magically sorted...

Again this is absolutely not true.

You can apply for UC if you have savings between £6,000 and £16,000 but the amount you receive is impacted by the amount of savings you have.

It is not fraud to apply for UC over £6,000.

It's set out on the Turn2us website.

There is no agency. Hosts have pretty much worked this out by the time they get to about 6 weeks. There is no one apart from adhoc Facebook hosting support groups who are all collectively trying to wing it together.

The government have pledged to pay hosts for 'up to a year' at this stage. Whether that will be extended is another matter.

I think at that point, the government will be reluctant to and will again throw it back to hosts to make private arrangements - possibly staying that since guests have had a year to settle, they should have sufficient means to pay rent directly to hosts. My thought is the government will suggest £350 per month... (this for reasons mentioned is a nonsense). It also neglects to address the legal implications of having a long term tenant rather than a guest. (it can affect mortgages and insurance but for the moment there is a waiver on these as guests are exempt - hence why the £350 is called a gift rather than a payment for accommodation in the first place). Guests aren't going to understand these differences... A host saying actually i need to charge rent / bills more in line with the going rate, and to actually cover costs is going to face hostility in some cases. Equally, some guests will be vulnerable to hosts having them over a barrel and able to charge over the odds if they wish...

I know one family of 6 who have been hosting a family of 5 in a 4 bed house. So 11 of them. They are all lovely, but the idea that its good for anyone in that situation to carry on living together is not being honest.

@RedToothBrush This post is spot on. The stigma of me saying 6 months is my limit is astounding. People who haven’t lifted a finger looking at me like Im some kind of heartless person. I feel like saying ‘ tell you what you do 6 months after me’
But of course they won’t, it’s easier to tell me to do better rather than do better themselves

Has anyone actually said that to you? I am in the same boat but v clear to all its a 6 month commitment - and now at 3 months my guests need to be thinking practically about the timelines, costs, competition and practically reality of finding a rental for the next step.

I am certainly not taking on any stigma and none of my friends, family or community would support that. But I expect the Gov the would like to exploit goodwill as per the “Thank you” letter I linked to above.

@DFOD Yes, I’ve had several ‘well you can’t put her on the streets comments’ despite the fact that my guest has made no effort to try and become in any way independent and that includes taking the 2 jobs I secured for her

How is it going in Europe?

Crikey. This sounds like a complete mess! Op you’ve done so much already. You cannot save everyone. Save your children. The mum cannot expect you to continue in this manner.

I remember from a past thread, where an op was having difficulty (thread was removed by the op) that some suggested contacting the local Ukrainian church to help rehouse her. The Ukrainian woman was from an upper class background and had connections. I seem to remember she had the option to stay with Ukrainians living in the U.K. already pre war.

Perhaps contacting the local church would be an option for you?

It is designed for her situation as you are allowed savings and support on UC

shes got less than 16,000 in savings so it’s doesn’t matter mentioning it and you are allowed to receive money for your husband while on UC. 😁

Thwres about 5 Ukrainian churches in the uk. There are not exactly abundant nor close to many hosts. The Ukrainian centre in Manchester is also closed now for the summer too...

How has your week been @CookieDoughKid - made any progress?

@DFOD Thank you for your support and all the other mumsnetter's that have given their time to post on my thread. Out of the blue today, my local council called me. They are calling all hosts in order of Ukrainian guest arrival, because some of us are coming up to the 5 / 6 month mark. The council wanted to ask what my thoughts were and plans for my guest. What's interesting (and no surprising) is that there is very little provision and organisation for next steps - each council does things differently. From our conversation I concluded that we will have to go down the private rental route since social housing is so scarce at the moment. I asked about private rent deposit or guarantor schemes etc and the council let me know that yes, there is a little funding available (i.e. council covering the deposit), but if just 25% of their Ukrainian guests were to ask for it, it would cost our council in excess of £1million (that just goes to show how costly the scheme is and the huge demand they are anticipating) so its not going to be something they will advertise.

I feel like I've consolidated a lot of thoughts since writing this thread. I shouldn't feel guilty putting my own family as a priority again. Therefore, in September I'm going to have a serious sit down with my guest and talk to her about moving out after the New Year and help her mentally prepare for it. That she needs to step up and take ownership of finding a place. That was something my council strongly advised, that guests own this next step - it will help them feel empowered and teach them to become independent - it's not my job to rehouse them. I'll update again if you're interested once I've had that conversation, I hope she will respond positively!

I am glad that you feel better about things and are clear about next steps. You have done a great thing but ultimately it’s about giving someone a fishing rod so any guilt you feel is misplaced.

I have had the conversation with my guests as they needed to know the process, timelines and costs involved for private rental and that now (at 3 months) they should start applying for jobs in order to be in a position to rent at the 6 month cut-off as I will not be able to offer my home beyond that point.

They are wealthy, well educated, professionals who speak perfect English and have lived, worked and studied in other countries - so are able to take this next step. I do think that they initially believed they would just be here until the autumn (and maybe their plans are still to return in October) so haven’t applied for work to date. But I feel relieved now having taken responsibility by having the conversation and outlined the deadline and process.

@DFOD Amazing you've had that conversation with them. How did they receive it and how's your relationship now? Do you think you'll keep in touch with them afterwards?

They were absolutely fine - said that they were looking to be independent sooner if possible.

Relationship is much better now because I feel the pressure is off me. It’s clear now that after lots of my settling them in with admin/benefits etc which as you know is intense and exhausting - that’s the safety net and the next step securing work and somewhere else to live is their responsibility.

Yes I will def keep in contact - they are very nice people and very respectful to live with.

Given how little your LC is likely to help, is there a chance you will end up hosting for even longer than 9 months?

Because if private rental is the only realistic option and they will need to find some kind of deposit then you could end up feeling guilty and letting them stay - or feeling desperate and landing yourself with a big bill to secure them new accommodation. For this reason alone, I’d get the ball rolling asap.

My guests have decided to return to Ukraine. I can't say I'm not relieved - not only to be getting the house back to ourselves, but also that we don't have to have the moving on conversation.

They are finding the separation from husband/parents too difficult, and I think things appear safer in Kyiv now than they did a few months ago.

It's a bit annoying after all the time & emotion I invested in finding school places for September, but hopefully it will all work out for the best for them.

That was something my council strongly advised, that guests own this next step - it will help them feel empowered and teach them to become independent - it's not my job to rehouse them.

I think thats great, but also neglects to address the issue of those who are unwilling to take that responsibility because they have become too comfortable with hosts. And hosts are stuck with this constant emotional blackmail and feeling that they are obliged to look after their guests.

I think there is the problem that both hosts and guests have to have a plan forward that matches otherwise its going to cause issues.

I think its very interesting how many hosts are finding it hard to be assertive and have put guests before their own families, sometimes without actually realising the extent to which theyve done that. I suspect once guests have gone, some hosts will step back and look at their kids and think 'fuck, i really didn't think about the impact it would have on our family'. And not necessarily in a good way.

I guess I’m sad all round. It would be incredibly difficult for her to move in the middle of the school year. They are having a massive adjustment and may well need savings whenever they eithe move back or start a new life elsewhere permanently.

Its also not easy having to adjust on your side, you have been generous giving her a home. I do feel the onus, however unfair it may seem, for you to be crystal clear about money, goods etc and the resentment over paying for sundries is completely on you I feel.

Your daughter isn’t feeling comfortable though, which is a big deal.

So in all, yes if it’s not working set a reasonable date for her to move out. It’s hard as we do not have to leave our country. We don’t have to see half of it in flames on the news. I can’t imagine. But I do not have a refugee so I have done nothing apart from donate.

This, 100%.

The money is supposed to compensate you for the inconveniences and hardships of having them stay, and to cover any expenses like loo roll and washing powder.

YOU decided to give away nearly half of that, without her asking you for it, and now you are moaning that you are not being sufficiently compensated!

How much clingfilm and how many dishwasher tablets are they using that an extra £350 a month isn’t covering it. I sympathise with the living situation but you lost me when you started bleating about money, especially when they pay for their own food.

Remind us all, how much help have you been during this Ukranian crisis ?