Page 17 | To think there is little incentive to work hard in the UK

BeachTree · 2022-07-25T19:08:46+00:00

Context. 30's, no kids, single, work full time. Just a bit disheartened. I have never claimed benefits, or any type of support, I work hard to make sure I can support myself (Not disputing those who genuinely require benefits/support) I have always paid all my taxes, and national insurance. I expect by the time I reach retirement age, the 'state pension' may look very different to what it does now and may not be available despite having paid in my whole life. I feel sometimes that I pay so much into the 'system' and get very little return and don't 'take' from it, whereas there are many people claiming every benefit possible, and constantly 'taking' from the system they don't pay into. There are so many ways to extract money from the system but only for those who don't work full time. I know someone who worked for about 1 or 2 year in late teens in the UK, then worked abroad for a number of years, during this time did not keep up with national insurance payments and obviously not paying UK tax as no in the country, also didn't pay tax in the country they resided in. Returned to England to have a baby on the NHS, now residing back in England, claiming benefits as a single parent for 2+ years, gets assistance with rent council tax etc despite having paid next to nothing in to the system. I cannot compute how this is fair. For example the cost of living payment, people who claim benefits will get £650, where as those who work and do not claim benefits will get £400. The cost of living crisis affects all of us - perhaps more so the people who work their socks off and aren't 'entitled' to 'support' The system is backwards and not in favour of people who work full time to support our ridiculous benefit system. So many examples - ie. people get help with rent, council tax, working tax credits etc etc etc - however those who work get zero, zilch. AIBU?

TigerRag · 27/07/2022 10:18

Nothappyatwork · 26/07/2022 21:39

I also find it hard to believe someone is indefinitely signed off with depression. My relative had major surgery on their back and the DWP has her in every 3 months for assessment.

My brother and I have Autism. (I have other serious health problems) And we were both left alone after being assessed in 2012.

vivainsomnia · 27/07/2022 10:23

It also hurt when single parents work FT, get no child maintenance (for various reasons) and just about make it through the month and they end up with less disposable income than their neighbour who work 16h or not at all, claim benefits but are much better off because they get £500 or more child maintenance but it's not counted for benefit purposes.

maddy68 · 27/07/2022 10:25

I no longer live in the UK.

Why does everyone need to "work hard". Why can't we work sustainably and have healthy work life balances like in my adoptive country

PeloAddict · 27/07/2022 10:28

maddy68 · 27/07/2022 10:25

I no longer live in the UK.

Why does everyone need to "work hard". Why can't we work sustainably and have healthy work life balances like in my adoptive country

Because I can't afford to live working less than FT which is 40hrs a week in my job

Nothappyatwork · 27/07/2022 10:36

Addicted2Kale · 27/07/2022 10:06

Seconded. Most work 16 hours a week max to claim the maximum amount of UC afforded to them. No one on benefits works full time. For one, it make zero sense to make the same money working you could make sat on your derriére for that 21.5 hours a week.

Show quote history

The issue with that is if you need a mortgage or a new rental …. The income may well mean on paper the person can afford their rent, but many people wont accept the UC component of the income.

Nothappyatwork · 27/07/2022 10:37

TigerRag · 27/07/2022 10:18

My brother and I have Autism. (I have other serious health problems) And we were both left alone after being assessed in 2012.

Show quote history

Brace yourself for UC then, you are in for a shock

Missebottom · 27/07/2022 10:50

XenoBitch i cant understand either why people can be signed off for depression but then left.
Yes it can be debilitating but i worked in a and e with clinical depression. Work can really help the brain and esteem and a sense of control for many.
Also it feels wromg that their is not active treatment such as talking therapy and drugs and this could be reviewed , part of a care plan if there was departmental joined up thinking.
My pat hate is people who choose to work part time and have top up benefits.it feels like their lifestyle of part time work is subsidised by others to me . It seems a bit unfair.

woodhill · 27/07/2022 11:49

Missebottom · 27/07/2022 10:50

XenoBitch i cant understand either why people can be signed off for depression but then left.
Yes it can be debilitating but i worked in a and e with clinical depression. Work can really help the brain and esteem and a sense of control for many.
Also it feels wromg that their is not active treatment such as talking therapy and drugs and this could be reviewed , part of a care plan if there was departmental joined up thinking.
My pat hate is people who choose to work part time and have top up benefits.it feels like their lifestyle of part time work is subsidised by others to me . It seems a bit unfair.

Yes it's not quite right is it

TigerRag · 27/07/2022 11:56

Missebottom · 27/07/2022 10:50

XenoBitch i cant understand either why people can be signed off for depression but then left.
Yes it can be debilitating but i worked in a and e with clinical depression. Work can really help the brain and esteem and a sense of control for many.
Also it feels wromg that their is not active treatment such as talking therapy and drugs and this could be reviewed , part of a care plan if there was departmental joined up thinking.
My pat hate is people who choose to work part time and have top up benefits.it feels like their lifestyle of part time work is subsidised by others to me . It seems a bit unfair.

I have a friend who works part time and claims top up benefits. And constantly whinges about being skint.

WatermelonWaveclub · 27/07/2022 11:59

I completely agree. I also wonder if those who 'don't think it worth working' have ever been in a position of not being able to work for a period of time. It's no fun losing a big part of your purpose in life, lacking the comradeship with your colleagues (and lacking adults to talk to!) and lacking the enjoyment and challenge of work.

WatermelonWaveclub · 27/07/2022 12:01

Sorry, the above was in reply to a post I can't find now!

Floogal · 27/07/2022 12:11

TigerRag · 27/07/2022 11:56

I have a friend who works part time and claims top up benefits. And constantly whinges about being skint.

Show quote history

@TigerRag I can one up that. I work with this lady who works 15 hours a week so she can keep her benefits. And she likes to get on her high horse about lazy scroungers (without any sense of irony). Also coasting until she can retire officially

Kamia · 27/07/2022 12:19

If anything I think we should receive more in work benefits in this country. Better maternity and paternity pay, sick pay is really bad in this country and some of us are not even entitled to it due to our contracts that should be illegal and more holiday pay, as well as better childcare options. If you look at countries like Finland and Sweden they look after people in employment well and they have high rates of people employed compared to this country. The majority of people cannot work because they cannot afford childcare and we need a better solution.

RainCloud · 27/07/2022 12:23

I can one up that. I work with this lady who works 15 hours a week so she can keep her benefits. And she likes to get on her high horse about lazy scroungers (without any sense of irony)

I used to work with one of these 😂

Threelittlelambs · 27/07/2022 12:25

DD has a 6 hour contract and works more like 24 (she’s a student as well) sick pay and holiday pay are based on her 8 hour contract. Holidays and just scheduled for not being in work so she never gets paid for them and loses hours that can’t be carried over.
DD works in a 0 hour contract and again gets no sick pay or holiday pay - it’s not ok!

WatermelonWaveclub · 27/07/2022 12:45

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 26/07/2022 13:30

I don't think anyone who is riled by the OP is in denial of this or not accepting that it must be demoralising and exasperating.

The issue is that people who are working and then looking at benefits claimants and seeing that they aren't much worse off than them often then turn around and start claiming that it's 'unfair' and that the 'welfare system is broken', which is effectively an attack on benefits claimants.

It is undoubtedly unfair, but the problem in this circumstance is emphatically not a broken welfare system. Benefits are calculated as the bare minimum income that a person in their circumstances requires in order to have a basic standard of living. If people are obtaining degrees, working full-time, and still don't have anything beyond the same basic standard of living as those who are in receipt of welfare, then surely the problem is poor salaries and a government that does nothing to ensure than employers treat employees fairly instead of prioritising profits, share price, and dividends.

If you argue that the problem is Welfare, then what you are essentially saying is 'despite the fact I am working full time and have a basic standard of living, this is unfair, so people on welfare should have a standard of living that is even lower and fails to meet a minimum, basic standard'. Not only is this failing to see the real issue, but it's inhumane due to what it implies for people who can not work through no fault of their own.

If people genuinely want to end the unfairness and bring about some social justice, then they need to stop the self-delusion and stop voting for parties who pretend to care about 'strivers'. The Tories don't give a shit about the people doing the striving, they only care that you do strive because that is a means to maintain or increase productivity and profit. 'Aspriational' Toryism is a lie on so many fronts. They simply don't care about people from lower social strata who do work hard, as evidenced by their economic ideology that has lead to things like the complaints in this very thread. There is also the total nonsense idea of 'trickle down wealth'. If the past 30 years aren't evidence enough that all increased wealth generation does is cause the wealthy to hoard more of it, then god help us. Boom and bust, the never ending cycle of people paying way over the odds for houses followed by negative equity, the 'right to buy' and never replacing lost housing stock, all of it is a con driven by the wealthy elite because they have a vested interest in creating a nation of wage slaves, then keeping those wages as low as possible. Another nonsense, this issue that all you need to do is better yourself then everyone is A-OK. Sure, when everyone in the UK is a high-flying exec, who is doing the street sweeping, the caring for the elderly, the bus driving, the road maintenance?

The 'problem' with working hard and being no better off than benefit claimants is nothing whatsoever to do with welfare claimants, or the welfare system, which is why people get annoyed when it's invariably cited as the issue while the real cause is ignored.

Show quote history

👏

FilePhoto · 27/07/2022 12:56

Addicted2Kale · 27/07/2022 10:06

Seconded. Most work 16 hours a week max to claim the maximum amount of UC afforded to them. No one on benefits works full time. For one, it make zero sense to make the same money working you could make sat on your derriére for that 21.5 hours a week.

Show quote history

I'd love to know where you get this "most" from? Or the idea that working 16 hours is some sort of magical thing. Because it's not. Not on UC.

Oh and BTW I worked full time and claimed benefits, until I had a mental health crisis.

WatermelonWaveclub · 27/07/2022 13:10

I think the real problem is 0 hour contracts and low wages. I have a friend who lost her job in Lockdown. She did really well to get another job quite quickly. Her new job is only a 16 hour contract so she gets top ups. She works extra hours as much as she can (including another 0 hour contract job) but sometimes doing the extra hours leaves her worse off. That needs to be looked at. It's still worth it for her to work the extra hours as it adds to her experience and possibility of promotion but it can be tricky financially.

WatermelonWaveclub · 27/07/2022 13:12

Just to note she was on out of work benefits some years ago and all the demands/sanctions for doing nothing wrong almost gave her a mental breakdown. She would definitely prefer to work than go back to that!

ComtesseDeSpair · 27/07/2022 13:14

FilePhoto · 27/07/2022 12:56

I'd love to know where you get this "most" from? Or the idea that working 16 hours is some sort of magical thing. Because it's not. Not on UC.

Oh and BTW I worked full time and claimed benefits, until I had a mental health crisis.

Show quote history

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation carried out quite an interesting piece of research several years ago which looked at the impact of tax credits on the working patterns of lone and coupled parents. I’ll try and dig it out. Among other things it did conclude that after the introduction of tax credits, there was a significant increase in the number of both types of parent, but lone parents in particular, to decrease their working hours to 16 from the higher number they had been working previously, so as to maximise their benefit claim and minimise their working time.

ComtesseDeSpair · 27/07/2022 13:16

(And the JRF noted at the time that they believed it was broadly a bad thing for the long term prospects of these parents, because the types of employment more amenable to allowing them to cap their hours in this way tended to be in relatively low paid sectors, and parents were limiting their long term capacity for better paid work.)

Kamia · 27/07/2022 13:33

Nobody should be working full time and living on the breadline. I get they may not be able to afford a lot of luxuries because they are on a low income but some people are living in real poverty and that's why people claim benefits. What really needs to change is pay. The rate of inflation is higher than pay rise. My pay went up by £6 this April that Is very low compared to the fact things have doubled in price at the supermarket.

ComtesseDeSpair · 27/07/2022 13:43

Kamia · 27/07/2022 13:33

Nobody should be working full time and living on the breadline. I get they may not be able to afford a lot of luxuries because they are on a low income but some people are living in real poverty and that's why people claim benefits. What really needs to change is pay. The rate of inflation is higher than pay rise. My pay went up by £6 this April that Is very low compared to the fact things have doubled in price at the supermarket.

The ultimate issue which is difficult to solve is that high wage economies are also high cost economies. Scandinavian and Nordic countries are oft touted as the dream, but as anyone who’s ever visited one of them knows, they ain’t cheap places to live. Even these countries have only gotten around the issue with generous welfare to subsidise lower earners, and things like heavily subsidised childcare. What they do broadly have which - as this thread demonstrates, with so many talking about it not being “worth” working rather than claiming benefits - the UK doesn’t, is a cohesive social contract and cultural mindset: if somebody in Norway said that they didn’t think it was worth working because it’s easier to claim benefits, they would be shunned, because it’s considered a completely socially unacceptable attitude to have, and one which undermines the whole principle of a society which supports those in need but expects those who can to do their bit.

FilePhoto · 27/07/2022 13:45

ComtesseDeSpair · 27/07/2022 13:14

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation carried out quite an interesting piece of research several years ago which looked at the impact of tax credits on the working patterns of lone and coupled parents. I’ll try and dig it out. Among other things it did conclude that after the introduction of tax credits, there was a significant increase in the number of both types of parent, but lone parents in particular, to decrease their working hours to 16 from the higher number they had been working previously, so as to maximise their benefit claim and minimise their working time.

Show quote history

Tax credits absolutely worked this way. My colleague at the time couldn't believe I worked full time when I could just do 16 hours like him.

But UC doesn't work like that. And yet these threads are always full of people claiming their neighbour/sister/mate is working the system by working 16 hours and claiming the maximum UC.

Hrpuffnstuff1 · 27/07/2022 13:57

Dp has a friend who stepped down from his better-paid job. Took a role in warehousing, refuses over time always takes his breaks. Typical work to rule fool.
Yet rants on Facebook about the government not paying a living wage.
😂😂
There is no free money in the world of work. I don't want to subsidise his and his ilk's choices.