To think there is little incentive to work hard in the UK

[BeachTree]

Context. 30's, no kids, single, work full time.

Just a bit disheartened. I have never claimed benefits, or any type of support, I work hard to make sure I can support myself (Not disputing those who genuinely require benefits/support) I have always paid all my taxes, and national insurance. I expect by the time I reach retirement age, the 'state pension' may look very different to what it does now and may not be available despite having paid in my whole life.

I feel sometimes that I pay so much into the 'system' and get very little return and don't 'take' from it, whereas there are many people claiming every benefit possible, and constantly 'taking' from the system they don't pay into. There are so many ways to extract money from the system but only for those who don't work full time. I know someone who worked for about 1 or 2 year in late teens in the UK, then worked abroad for a number of years, during this time did not keep up with national insurance payments and obviously not paying UK tax as no in the country, also didn't pay tax in the country they resided in. Returned to England to have a baby on the NHS, now residing back in England, claiming benefits as a single parent for 2+ years, gets assistance with rent council tax etc despite having paid next to nothing in to the system. I cannot compute how this is fair.

For example the cost of living payment, people who claim benefits will get £650, where as those who work and do not claim benefits will get £400. The cost of living crisis affects all of us - perhaps more so the people who work their socks off and aren't 'entitled' to 'support' The system is backwards and not in favour of people who work full time to support our ridiculous benefit system. So many examples - ie. people get help with rent, council tax, working tax credits etc etc etc - however those who work get zero, zilch.

AIBU?

There's enough wealth in the world for everyone to not have to work and do something they love instead.

If nobody worked, the infrastructure would collapse in hours. How do you think services such as electricity, gas, mains water etc. are provided? We would have to return to a primitive 'self sufficient' lifestyle of foraging for our own food and so on. That would be harder work than many jobs, with no retirement, sick leave etc.

I think people really need to get a grip with their hatred, prejudice, and 'I know someone who..' shit.

When I was on benefits you might have thought I didn't have anything 'wrong' with me. I'm a private person and wouldn't have told anyone about my severe PTSD. You might have seen me out one day, clean and seemingly happy, but you didn't see that the whole week previously I hadn't been out of bed or showered battling constant panic attacks etc. Like another poster, sometimes I went manic and would sell my soul to get 'things' that I thought would make others like me.

The Tories already did the benefit-bashing media thing when they first got in. It's how they convinced all those not actually living on them that's it's a life of luxury and that 'austerity' needed to be targeted on the poorest. Remember Austerity?? It seems benefit bashing is the agenda again.

For those who want the disability system 'tightened up' - don't you know they already did that?? Those 'reforms' caused the sad deaths of 100s of disabled people, some through suicide sadly like another previous poster's poor mum, and some through starvation.

DWP sees 'sharp rise' in benefit death reviews - BBC

The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) has begun 124 reviews since July 2019. Ninety-seven of those concerned people who died.
The DWP holds reviews when it is alleged its actions had a negative impact, or when named at an inquest.

Yes - when named at an inquest.

Do we really want this, just so you can have a moan and a kick down on others??

Wake up.

If being on benefits is the life of riley op , then get a sperm donor and claim. Ditch that pesky job. Don't just stop at 1 child though....more kids, more money!

I don't think anyone who is riled by the OP is in denial of this or not accepting that it must be demoralising and exasperating.

The issue is that people who are working and then looking at benefits claimants and seeing that they aren't much worse off than them often then turn around and start claiming that it's 'unfair' and that the 'welfare system is broken', which is effectively an attack on benefits claimants.

It is undoubtedly unfair, but the problem in this circumstance is emphatically not a broken welfare system. Benefits are calculated as the bare minimum income that a person in their circumstances requires in order to have a basic standard of living. If people are obtaining degrees, working full-time, and still don't have anything beyond the same basic standard of living as those who are in receipt of welfare, then surely the problem is poor salaries and a government that does nothing to ensure than employers treat employees fairly instead of prioritising profits, share price, and dividends.

If you argue that the problem is Welfare, then what you are essentially saying is 'despite the fact I am working full time and have a basic standard of living, this is unfair, so people on welfare should have a standard of living that is even lower and fails to meet a minimum, basic standard'. Not only is this failing to see the real issue, but it's inhumane due to what it implies for people who can not work through no fault of their own.

If people genuinely want to end the unfairness and bring about some social justice, then they need to stop the self-delusion and stop voting for parties who pretend to care about 'strivers'. The Tories don't give a shit about the people doing the striving, they only care that you do strive because that is a means to maintain or increase productivity and profit. 'Aspriational' Toryism is a lie on so many fronts. They simply don't care about people from lower social strata who do work hard, as evidenced by their economic ideology that has lead to things like the complaints in this very thread. There is also the total nonsense idea of 'trickle down wealth'. If the past 30 years aren't evidence enough that all increased wealth generation does is cause the wealthy to hoard more of it, then god help us. Boom and bust, the never ending cycle of people paying way over the odds for houses followed by negative equity, the 'right to buy' and never replacing lost housing stock, all of it is a con driven by the wealthy elite because they have a vested interest in creating a nation of wage slaves, then keeping those wages as low as possible. Another nonsense, this issue that all you need to do is better yourself then everyone is A-OK. Sure, when everyone in the UK is a high-flying exec, who is doing the street sweeping, the caring for the elderly, the bus driving, the road maintenance?

The 'problem' with working hard and being no better off than benefit claimants is nothing whatsoever to do with welfare claimants, or the welfare system, which is why people get annoyed when it's invariably cited as the issue while the real cause is ignored.

Nobody has a crystal ball

People were made redundant during covid, the Government provided support, including to some of my friends.

Try getting a job in your 60s with some health conditions

You should be proud that the Government has a system in place to help people.

Of course, some people will play the system, but this is not the majority

Please come back in 30 years time & tell us that you have not been on benefits

@QueenCamilla The differential is that I'm in Scotland? The title of this thread is referring to the UK. Which Scotland is in. So who says that the thread is referring to England and that Scotland is a differential? Typical 🙄 Anyway, I don't really care what you get I'm simply saying what I get. You're the who decided to call me a liar. Which I'm not. I guess some folk are just so intellectually challenged that they absolutely cannot get their heads around the fact that other people's circumstances may be different than theirs.

To answer your question "are benefits really thousands of pounds higher in Scotland than the rest of the country?". I have no idea. Clearly there is some difference ie Scottish Child Payment. However I've only had benefits in Scotland, not England/Wales/N.I, so I can't say for sure. Unlike you, I don't spout out my own situation and assume it's the exact same for everyone else and calls them liars when they disagree. Scotland does pay a higher level of income tax than the rest of the UK, so perhaps we do get a higher level of benefits. But again, I don't know for sure.

The system is the issue, not people. Some humans are rubbish are there will always be people who abuse it, like there will always be people who commit crimes, but the system as a whole does not work when people who work full time and pay a lot into it are constantly short-changed by what they get out of it - ie. under funded NHS, social care and school systems under huge strain.

I work full time as a teacher, my husband has suffered for many years with very bad depression. He has been on benefits for this for many years but they just supplement my income, he could not afford to live on them alone. The big issue we have is that he has spent years working really hard to overcome/find coping mechanisms for his depression so he is now looking at getting a job.

When he gets a job will it work out? Or will it send him back? Will he actually be able to continue with this job long-term? More likely he'll need to start with something part time, developing more coping strategies, then build up. However, the second the gov even get a whiff that he is thinking of working, they will declare him fit for work and we will lose ALL benefits. So I am having to save my earnings in case he tries to work, isn't able to continue, and we are left with no support. This did happen many years ago and it was a hard slog to get him back on benefits. He is really trying.

Compare a friend(ish) is ours who has also been on benefits for years for depression and she does exactly nothing. No doctors, drugs, therapy, even personal meditation. She sits at home all day doing exactly what she likes - she doesn't have much money, but she has enough to live in a cheaper area and spends her days doing nothing. My husband's incentive to work came from himself - to be an equal contributor with me, to get better so we can have children, improve his life. While she's content to spend her life as she currently is without trying to get better.

Problem is - how do you incentivise her to work, without punishing those people that WANT to get better but haven't been able to?

It's a complicated thing that that requires a complete overhaul. I read a book about Universal Basic Income recently that left me fully convinced it would work MUCH better than the current system, but it won't happen, especially while people continue to vote Tory (but realisitically, the current labour gov wouldn't look at the idea either)

Yanbu. Benefits should stop after a certain period, they are too generous.

So what happens then? We leave people to die homeless on the street?

How would you work out when to stop the benefits @HotCaterpillar?

"Yanbu. Benefits should stop after a certain period, they are too generous."

So people who cannot work will suddenly develop the ability to work? Or those on low wages will suddenly get their wages increased?

What period would you suggest?

Benefits are essential. We shouldn't belittle anyone. Why should a single parent have to work, surely they should be allowed to focus on their children. People who lose their job or business should be given the dignity to survive while they move on. Hopeless people who have been let down by the education and care system? Surely we should be trying to make amends and offer training, education and support. The whole system is geared to people who are good at negotiating, the number of homeless tell us this. My ideal is where we offer a safety net to all people and also try to make sure that benefits are not part.of the problem. People I love are caught up in this mentality that it's the council or others, the only reason I am glad I am self sufficient is because the people who deal with the hopeless disempowered people feel scared, vulnerable and angry. It's so unfair. Why can't we admit that the system let's families down, let's children down and starts to invest in making people feel safe and secure and cared for. I do think cannabis has a lot to answer for in young people but that's just my.opinion.

Exactly. You have to have money to live on by law. Nobody would vote for a party that took away ppls money and let them die either.

I'm sure that some of them could work but chose not to

"I'm sure that some of them could work but chose not to"

Those that can't. Do you agree with that poster that they should be left to die.

Yabu. Of course some people choose not work and live on benefits.good luck to them, more jobs for people who want to work.
I have worked for most of the last 35 years. But have had two periods of being on JSA. It's really not a life of luxury. Last time l think l got my rent paid and £78 a week.
I got more the time before as l had dependant teenagers but that was hard to. We regularly ran of credit on our pre payment meters.
I just worry about my own finance's l can't be worried about people claiming benefits.
It's a lifeline you can use if anything unexpected happens in your life

No of course not but ooh do you think all those you mention fall into the can't work category

Why aren't all those moaning about people they "know" that live the high life on benefits, claiming them for themselves. Why are you so intent on saying how hard you work when, according to you, life is soooooo much better living off the state. My guess is that you know it's all BS and you couldn't manage on them.

Recovery from mental illness has to come from within. It sounds like your husband and your "friend" are along different parts of their recovery journey. Your husband also has you and your encouragement. Who does your friend have? Do you think stopping her money will suddenly make her get help for her depression?

In some ways, I can see the point of this post and can empathise a little with it. However, I work hard because I couldn't live with myself if I didn't. Sometimes things just need to be done, not because you're getting paid, but because it's the responsible thing to do. It can be so easy to say why bother, I would hate to think that someone might see me as coasting through life or as lazy though. So why bother working hard? Because of a sense of purpose, because you want to do something with your life, because you want to, because you want to make those close to you proud, you want to make a difference, I could go on quite a bit once I give it a bit of thought.

Fab post doingitforyorkshire.

There is no safety net for those without children.

TBH if I'd left school with only a few exam passes, I'd be looking at being a single mother on benefits, rather than looking forward to a dead end, zero hours contract, min wage job. As the saying goes, don't hate the players, hate the game. The issue is, what happens to these women when the kids turn 18 and there are no more benefits available?

Agree. It’s why I never understand the posts of “well why don’t you just give up your job and go on benefits then?” and “I can totally understand why people don’t want to work when they can get almost the same in benefits instead.” It’s never occurred to me to be one of those people because I’d feel utterly embarrassed to do it. My parents would be ashamed of me. My friends would think less of me. I can’t imagine having so little self respect that I didn’t think of was “worth it” to work rather than scrounge, knowing I’m able bodied and healthy and have the option.

I can’t imagine having so little self respect that I didn’t think of was “worth it” to work rather than scrounge, knowing I’m able bodied and healthy and have the option

I agree. I don't know how the likes of Boris and Carrie Johnson, who have perfected high value grifting and scrounging to a fine art, can live with themselves. But it is OK for them to do it as it's all gold wall paper, rich Russians and fancy wedding celebrations rather than fags, cider and flat screen TVs.