Can i have a rant about my Ukrainian guest

[fakenamefornow]

Context, normal family home with teenage school children. Taken in mum and six year old, they're living in our spare bedroom (with ensuite) and living as part of the family. We didn't know them previously and they came directly from Ukraine to us. They're both lovely and generally easy to live with, been with us one month, no regrets. Just need a little anonymous rant to let off steam though.

Ukraine seems better than the UK in every way.

The food. She's a very good cook and makes lovely Ukrainian dinners for us. But British food is terrible, Ukrainian people would never eat so much processed food (she might have a point). They have processed food in Ukraine but only foreigners eat it. Ukrainians always cook fresh.

The health care. She's had three medical emergencies with her child since being here. First one, child had temperature of 38, (bouncing around playing looking in perfect health to me.) She was astonished that a doctor wouldn't immediately come to house to see child. Arranged GP appointment that afternoon (she doesn't drive, I had to take her) . Upset, angry and confused that antibiotics weren't given. She really just couldn't understand it at all. I Ukraine a doctor would have come to the house, day or night, and given medication, you treat small things immediately so they don't get big. Child had three days off school and spent the whole time running around playing.

Child had tiny abscess on gum, no pain or any other symptoms. This necessitated an immediate trip to the out of hours minor injuries unit (still appalled doctor wouldn't come to house). No treatment, told to ring 111 in the morning. I live in an NHS dentistry desert but because they've come from Ukraine a local dentist has taken them on as NHS patients. Had emergency dental appointment next day. Dentist said leave it alone, come back in two months time or if problem develops with it. Mum wanted minor surgery to remove/empty it and antibiotics. More anger and confusion. She can't believe how bad medical care is here (again, she might have a point). Anyway, more time off school for this.

Her appointment for biometrics was messed up (their fault not her's) and she missed the card delivery. So bureaucracy and postal service doesn't work here. She's applied for universal credit, no money yet though, and it seems ridiculous that she should go to the office every week. Nothing works well in this country. Even the streets are difficult to walk on because the pavement is uneven.

I know many Ukrainian have lost good lives to take children to safety and life probably was much better in Ukraine than it will ever be in UK. Hopefully this is temporary and they will be able to return. Her life in Ukraine, was living in a nice flat that was her mother's (mother dead, now hers) with her brother and her kid. She's divorced, kids dad not around, no contact for years. Worked as office manager (small company, not high flying) with good salary.

Really, she's lovely and very grateful.
I just need a little rant about a few things.

1. Firstly, the OP isn't wrong in venting/ranting. From her perspective, it'd be not only frustrating but also annoying that this Ukranian mother would complain and brag about how much "better" it is in Ukraine. Yet the OP has graciously agreed to house these refugees for who knows how long, opening her home and all that it entails, to 2 complete strangers. Suffering the trauma of war doesn't mean you leave your manners at the door. 2) Secondly, having lived in Eastern/Central Europe for awhile, I immediately saw the big cultural differences informing the Ukranian woman's complaints and dissatisfaction. Unlike in the UK, Eastern Europeans are not known for their subtlety nor for mincing words. If something isn't to their satisfaction, they say it aloud - the word "tact" isn't in the Slavic language. It doesn't occur to them that sometimes it's best to simply be gracious and quiet, especially if you're a guest. Nationalistic feelings are quite strong as well (and I don't mean in a negative way - it's just that many/most from this region not only Ukraine, tend to feel that their country is the best and all others in particular, Western European countries are falling apart), so this woman would make unfavourable comparisons to what she's used to and what she sees in another country. 3) Thirdly, Eastern Europeans tend to think that if you have a temperature of 38, it means a trip to the doctor and getting antibiotics. Everything from the common cold to broken bones is treated with antibiotics. The overuse of antibiotics is appalling. Medical treatment in Eastern Europe is give an injection or a pill and it will go away. The level of medical care is very up and down. The bedside manner of most Eastern European doctors and nurses are really bad, very rude sometimes, and sometimes with no regard for the patient's feelings, and even will tell the patient they're speaking nonsense about their symptoms. So for the Ukranian woman to brag about how much better care is in her country is just empty boasting. 4) Fourthly, even before the current war, living conditions in Ukraine aren't as good as this woman seemed to imply to her host. This particular woman was lucky to have had a good job and a flat. The poverty level in Ukraine is quite high, and living conditions are pretty primitive in many places. In the country where I live, it's common to see Ukranians working in construction or cleaning houses or babysitting. They're living and working abroad all over Europe to makes better money and better opportunities for their kids. Doctors might make house calls, but not everywhere. The mother getting upset about her child not receiving antibiotics is again, a cultural thing. The child taking days off school isn't unusual either. In Eastern European countries, both schoolkids and adults get written notes from doctors recommending a week's time off, and noone thinks anything of taking a few days off even with 38 degrees temperature. 5) If the OP were able to find a refugee org. that deals with Ukranians, it might help to overcome the frustrations she's feeling, and help the Ukranian mother to understand the cultural differences and that being in the UK safe and sound is something to be thankful for. I truly hope that this war will end soon. REPLY

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This poor Ukrainian woman has had to make a massive adjustment so OP, hard as it is, I would just smile and nod.

But this misinformation in this post….

The NHS is the tenth best health system in the world whereas the Ukrainian one comes in at 81st. Link

The NHS is amongst the best VALUE in the OECD but we spend significantly less per head than other nations with better outcomes. We need to pay more if we want better and there is no reason to introduce the inefficiency of private profit into the system.

Yes, things in Ukraine before the war were so much better than the UK, that's why a big percentage of Ukranians go to work in other countries to get better pay and better opportunities, so that the British pounds and Euros they send home enable their families to live better than what is offered by their corrupted government.

It's very Eastern European to complain and compare all the time. Ukranians, Czechs, Polish, Hungarians....they love to whinge, whinge, whinge. Negativity and pessimissm are national pasttimes for many. It used to drive me crazy when I first moved to Eastern Europe. Now I've learnt to just shut out the whingers.

You're allowed a rant!

You are doing something amazing, something I wasn't able to do and actually I don't know anyone in my full circle of friends who has done it. You're very patient, I just couldn't be patient enough to deal with it. Whether that makes me a bad person so be it.

Well done and anytime you want a rant, I will be here to listen x

Lol, DH is Hungarian and would definitely agree with you. He calls Hungary a crab bucket - any time anyone tries to climb out, the others pull it back in. Whinging is a national hobby (like we enjoy moaning about the weather, public transport and the NHS).

It’s not the same, but I have a friend who is not English (but from a country she could return to) who always slags off the NHS to me and Britain in general, I kind of think -wrong Audience.

The film shown on TV the other day of how the disabled are cared for in Ukraine does not make me want their health care system.

My Ukrainian guest also told me her child sees the doctor every six months for health check. This is normal treatment for children and part of government programme. Child is six

That's a completely pointless, non evidence based thing to be doing.

This is probably a physical manifestation of her trauma but I can understand why it is getting on your nerves.

This country does have its problems but we are still very lucky to have the NHS and the welfare system.

It's very common for people who move abroad to think familiar=good, different=bad.

There are things that I think are better in the UK and things that could be improved to be similar as back home. But then some of the things I'd improve my British bf thinks that the way we do it back home is ridiculous. So it's about familiarity.

I really don't think everything she is saying is universally true in Ukraine.

Interesting thread, but the footage recently on the news about disabled people, particularly children, in Ukraine might lead one to believe that it's not as wonderful as OP's guest thinks.

Also, my food, (I am English and neither proud or ashamed of it), is categorically not BOBBINS. And fwiw, I live in a the arse end of nowhere but can still access good coffee, freshly baked bread and fresh fruit and veg.

Also sure as eggs is eggs there is a UK bashing thread on MN every week (maybe we could claim that we self-flagellate better than any other nation)😉

It reminded me of the films from Romania in the 90s. I hoped we'd moved on past that.

While it’s great that people are

Just been listening to the reports about the Ukrainian care system on radio 4. Maybe OP could sit her guest down to watch or listen to some of this stuff and point out that we don't do many doctor home visits but we don't lock disabled children up in cots with no time outdoors, no exercise, no stimulation with nurses who just say, "Nature decided their fate." Funny how nature hasn't made that decision in the UK.

The reporter said they were at the home for 7 hrs and one man was sitting ou tied to a bench for those 7 hours, I wonder how long he actually sat there?

It’s absolutely shameful - I had to switch the news off. Heartbreaking 😢

It is heartbreaking, I started to cry as I was driving home listening to it. Think of all the time they spend doing six monthly checks on healthy children instead of spending that time helping children who are so in need.

They said on the radio that one good thing to come out of all this horror in Ukraine is the aid agencies are going in and seeing these things and they will be working to make changes. I hope they are successful.

@PlattyJubes I didn't see that, but I did see a harrowing documentary about children living on the streets in Ukraine.

I’ve been an ex pat in 3 different countries and when you’re feeling homesick, or you just cannot understand the damned tax forms, or a hundred other minor everyday niggles it’s easy to think it was so much easier and better at home. And I was in these situations willingly, not fleeing from a war.
You’re doing a great job, OP. I can understand it’s hard, was speaking yesterday to a lovely couple ( our dogs said hello on a walk) They said they have a lovely Ukrainian family staying with them but a few months in they’re finding it hard work. We’re used to our nuclear households, not many UK household are used to extended living.

You can choose to go to state doctors or go private ( GP costs about £5 , specialists are free however you would need to pay for all the tests and operations - e.g. about £15-20 for CT scan of head , my mum paid £400 for her hysterectomy ( so high price is due the high level of gynaecologist who performed the operation ( you choose the specialist by yourself), usually it would cost twice less). Both state and private GPs are attending patients at home when requested. Even during the war, people are able to get help when they need. The waiting list in the UK is unbelievable... so long.. so frustrating

The poor woman. She must be so homesick and frightened. When we are feeling homesick, it is natural to view home in a rosy light, though.

However, to help you put things in perspective, I worked in Ukraine for several years and can assure you that many Ukrainians DO eat processed food. It isn’t just foreigners. There are PLENTY of unhealthy and even overweight Ukrainians who eat too much junk food (and hard drinking is more common there as well). I don’t know why she would tell you otherwise.

The overuse of antibiotics is a real concern there as well. Yes, Ukrainians will go to the doctor for small things that we would ignore, such as a common cold. And the doctors will prescribe antibiotics routinely, sometimes as if to please the patient. Part of this is that doctors are paid very, very little there, even in comparison to the cost of living, and pleasing the patient thus becomes more important. But you can read about the overuse of antibiotics for unnecessary things and the consequences and concerns about this. I don’t think it is something great. The overall quality of medical care in Ukraine is not good and embassy workers went to a foreign doctor/clinic for this reason. I knew some British and American people who decided to forgo embassy or employer advice and try out the local dentists, and the results ranged from poor to alarming. There is a great deal of systematic corruption in Ukraine, including in their educational and university and medical schools, and this bleeds into and affects a range of services.

I didn’t have small children while on that post, nor did my colleagues, and I didn’t know anyone who had a doctor come to the house: maybe that is something that doctors do for children, though.

I advise that you remain sympathetic to your lodger, of course. She is in a terrible situation and my heart breaks for her and for other displaced Ukrainians. But you needn’t think Ukraine was a utopia to begin with, either.

Very touching that so many people attributed the guest's complaints to the trauma of fleeing the war, but all Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians, Romanians etc I've known and talked to in decades have always complained about these things, healthcare and not being able to get a home visit by a paediatrician for a sick child being nearly always number one shock! Uneven pavements is new to me though...

Antibiotics and most medicines which you need prescription for in Britain are normal over the counter medicines in Ukraine, also an ambulance is treated a bit like a free Uber but with a doctor instead of a meal, and most people soothe their anxieties by calling an ambulance for anything and everything up to a few times a week - it's completely normalised in society and I don't think the ambulance service in Ukraine sees anything wrong with it (and usually they are handed gifts or cash on their visits too ).

I am surprised by the antibiotics thing though, because my experience of about half my life in the UK has been that everything is treated by antibiotics. My DD(over 18) was in agony and obviously needed surgery for 2 years(started just before Covid), and instead was prescribed 14 courses of antibiotics practically back to back via phone consultations.
She just recently had a surgery because it reached emergency proportions where she couldn't be fobbed off any more. Btw she wasn't offered any dressings changes or after surgery aftercare and when her stiches got infected, what was she prescribed? Antibiotics. Over the phone. With doctors refusing to even see her. Eastern European side of the family was absolutely beyond appalled by her experience. Saying all that, if I needed a quicker diagnosis I'd recommend going elsewhere in Europe, however for treatment I'd rather choose UK (when treatment is provided, it's generally of a high quality, it's just that the condition of getting it sometimes seems to be nearly dying...)

Situation with food and fresh ingredients is great in UK nowadays compared with, say, 15 years ago. But there are some other differences, like sandwiches not being considered a "meal", but rather something for emergencies or on the go, and lunch being the main meal which needs to be hot and usually be a two or three course affair. It's considered much healthier to have your main meal in the middle of the day rather than before going to bed.

Breakfasts are also usually cooked and things like cereals are not seriously considered as something nutritious, to give a child something like frosties for a meal is considered on a par of offering them coca-cola when they are thirsty.

Last meal of the day is usually something light, that's why many Eastern Europeans think the British way is unhealthy - not so much the food itself, but how it's distributed and how often at least two meals are not hot/cooked...they think it's unhealthy though current over 70 year old Brits have probably eaten like
this all their lives and mostly seem to be doing ok?

(Definitely lots of stodge in Ukrainian diet and the culture of drinking tea with pastries and different sweet treats between meals is normal)

on a par of offering them coca-cola when they are thirsty

^ the other thread on here at the moment mentions this sort of thing is really common amongst our guests....lots of kids allowed sugar, salt and caffeine at all hours.

@WTF475878237NC yes, it's true, lots of Eastern bloc people would critisize the British way with food (esp dividing meals into simple/processed meals a-la school meals for kids and intricate dinners with various ingredients, like Mexican or Middle Eastern food, for adults - but then it's not only people from Eastern Europe who are surprised by it, my East Asian and French acquaintances were bewildered by fish fingers, nuggets, chips and peas types of meals for kids too ) but themselves would give them loads of sugary foods and as I said snacking is very normal...

and they eat more cakes, or rather gateau or torts - actually from the times when Russian Empire's upper and middle classes spoke French and everyone had a French governor/governess and the Emperor had French chefs, the culture of French patisserie and desserts became so embedded(like curries in UK) that it absolutely continued into the Soviet era, so desserts you may get in cafes and bakeries in Ukraine could be considered phenomenal or at least restaurant level in Britain...@fakenamefornow I'd be surprised if your guest hasn't complained about the lack of nice desserts in Britain :)

But then some of Ukrainian ways with food do horrify the Brits, like boiling the whole chicken or a massive chunk of beef into a soup 😂
It's because chickens for sale there are grown mature birds but the size of poussin here, quite lean and not great for roasting at all, and the meat can be a little tough, but it produces an amazingly flavoursome stock.

With kids eating and up at all hours too - first many families don't have a bedtime routine as such, but if they even do, for a pre-school child to go to bed at 10PM is completely normal. Actually discussions about how the British put their kids to bed sometimes at 6PM is another popular subject/shock among expats.

Though the reasons for it, like for many other cultural differences, come from economics, climate, the way the society is set up (NOTHING closes at 5PM in Ukraine) etc. What do the Brits think when they go to Barcelona and see 3 year olds running round the street at midnight while their parents are sitting eating dinner round the tables on the pavement? I am sure they accept it, but if they were to host a Catalonian family it would cause some problems if there was no previous awareness...the list goes on.