Can i have a rant about my Ukrainian guest

[fakenamefornow]

Context, normal family home with teenage school children. Taken in mum and six year old, they're living in our spare bedroom (with ensuite) and living as part of the family. We didn't know them previously and they came directly from Ukraine to us. They're both lovely and generally easy to live with, been with us one month, no regrets. Just need a little anonymous rant to let off steam though.

Ukraine seems better than the UK in every way.

The food. She's a very good cook and makes lovely Ukrainian dinners for us. But British food is terrible, Ukrainian people would never eat so much processed food (she might have a point). They have processed food in Ukraine but only foreigners eat it. Ukrainians always cook fresh.

The health care. She's had three medical emergencies with her child since being here. First one, child had temperature of 38, (bouncing around playing looking in perfect health to me.) She was astonished that a doctor wouldn't immediately come to house to see child. Arranged GP appointment that afternoon (she doesn't drive, I had to take her) . Upset, angry and confused that antibiotics weren't given. She really just couldn't understand it at all. I Ukraine a doctor would have come to the house, day or night, and given medication, you treat small things immediately so they don't get big. Child had three days off school and spent the whole time running around playing.

Child had tiny abscess on gum, no pain or any other symptoms. This necessitated an immediate trip to the out of hours minor injuries unit (still appalled doctor wouldn't come to house). No treatment, told to ring 111 in the morning. I live in an NHS dentistry desert but because they've come from Ukraine a local dentist has taken them on as NHS patients. Had emergency dental appointment next day. Dentist said leave it alone, come back in two months time or if problem develops with it. Mum wanted minor surgery to remove/empty it and antibiotics. More anger and confusion. She can't believe how bad medical care is here (again, she might have a point). Anyway, more time off school for this.

Her appointment for biometrics was messed up (their fault not her's) and she missed the card delivery. So bureaucracy and postal service doesn't work here. She's applied for universal credit, no money yet though, and it seems ridiculous that she should go to the office every week. Nothing works well in this country. Even the streets are difficult to walk on because the pavement is uneven.

I know many Ukrainian have lost good lives to take children to safety and life probably was much better in Ukraine than it will ever be in UK. Hopefully this is temporary and they will be able to return. Her life in Ukraine, was living in a nice flat that was her mother's (mother dead, now hers) with her brother and her kid. She's divorced, kids dad not around, no contact for years. Worked as office manager (small company, not high flying) with good salary.

Really, she's lovely and very grateful.
I just need a little rant about a few things.

My experience of their hospitals- they are like something from dr zhivago

Never read it, what does it mean?

The BMA thing was both a “safety” thing but also a protectionist move by doctors. Medical training in Ukraine is very different. As posted upthread, many who say they have studied medicine at university are actually not what we would call doctors in the UK, they’ve just studied some healthcare related subject and could be the equivalent of a HCA. If you look on the boards of people searching for hosts in the UK you will see an enormous number of “doctors” and “lawyers” but they’re not all qualified doctors or lawyers as we would regard it here. But of those who are actually doctors it isn’t regarded as an elite academic profession like it is here. It isn’t difficult to get into medical university and it’s state funded and controlled and allocated (and low paid). This is all according to my guest. She said the choices when you finish school at 16 are medical, economic (which seems to mean accounts), legal (which seems to mean general business) or one other which I forget (probably science/engineering based). You then go to an appropriate college/university to study on that pathway.

This is nonsense. Nursing / HCA in Ukraine pretty much an equivalent of a high school leaving qualification, only instead of going to an academic school one goes to a vocational college. No degree is required for nursing.

Universities are mostly of the classical type and offer your typical range of everything - humanities, history, linguistics and modern languages, jurisprudence and STEM included, so not sure where your guest gets her "pathways" split from. Medical schools are standalone universities, specialising only in medicine, and they do make real doctors. It is true though that even human medicine is not an elite profession, and, say, vet medicine is considered a very redneck / low intelligence occupation, in contrast with the UK.

As an aside, I think the antibiotic prescribing is terrible and also a doctor doing a home visit to a child running around playing with a temperature of 38c is ridiculous.
Honestly, it is not that bad with the antibiotic prescription. There's indeed a school of medical thought (not specific to Ukraine) that recommends antibiotics at the early stages of bacterial sore throats. And yes, you absolutely test to confirm it is bacterial, not viral. And yes, many of those cases will be self resolving through "natural immunity", but many, if not treated early on, will result in longer term rheumatic conditions. Considered to be an acceptable human cost in some medical cultures, and unacceptable in others.

These practices do not contribute to the antibiotic resistance to a major extent, as the pathogen is exterminated and that's the end of the story. Look at agriculture and healthcare facilities first.

Just repeating what I’ve been told.

It means they are extremely soviet, to put it diplomatically.

It’s easier to become a doctor in lots of Eastern European countries than it is here. DH went to school with someone who didn’t get straight A’s in her A levels so wasn’t allowed to join medical school here as a result, she went to Prague and became a doctor there instead. So that’s part of the reason we have a shortage, they should perhaps consider lowering the criteria slightly…

Our pavements are uneven and our roads are potholed, she isn’t wrong. Our ‘cuisine’ is mocked worldwide, my Dad is French and he detests British food despite living here most of his life. It’s beige and bland, they call us roast beef.

my dad is French and he detests British food despite living here most of his life. It’s beige and bland, they call us roast beef

Yes some French people can be bigoted idiots, you get them everywhere unfortunately.
I certainly don’t eat beige bland food, and I wasn’t brought up on it either.

@fakenamefornow

I do feel very embarrassed by my country sometimes, we have absolutely run our public services into the ground. We are a democracy though and this is entirely our own choice, I just don't understand why we would make that choice?

For some reason you seem to be ignoring what you've been told about how good UK public services are compared to most countries.

Yes, they should be even better. Yes, adult social care (for one) is underfunded. Yes, we need more doctors and nurses and should prioritise funding for it.

But no, Ukraine does not have a better health service or other public services (before the war, I mean) but it's as if you're wanting to use this Ukrainian person's perspective as fact in doing down what we do have.

I think you'd be in for a very, very big shock if you tried living in most other countries, including many of the G20. I've lived and worked all over the world and what you seem to think about the UK being some backward, poorly resourced wasteland compared to other countries is just not factually correct.

(For the avoidance of doubt I detest Johnson and his cronies and what they've done. We are a wealthy enough country to have had much better public services, despite already being among the better ones (like it or not)).

They voted to do so in 2008 because of a fear there would be too many doctors, unbelievable as that seems now: www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748

It takes so long to train a doctor that restricting or loosening places has a very long trail before it actually takes effect in a way that is obvious to patients. They're increasing places now, but it'll be a long time before those new doctors come into play: www.gponline.com/9000-medical-school-places-available-2021-cap-lifted/article/1724173. The problem is having capacity for placements - from the academic side it's fine, universities can and would accommodate more, but that's not enough to make a doctor. We desperately need to train new doctors and nurses but they need placements and their supply is never infinite and is under particular pressure in the current crisis. Plus I don't know about medical students but for nursing I know we're seeing both record applications and record levels of student nurses dropping out and recently qualifieds leaving, partially because they don't feel supported enough in their training. Recruiting loads of people in a crisis and giving them an appropriate level of training isn't an easy thing.

We desperately need to train new doctors and nurses but they need placements and their supply is never infinite and is under particular pressure in the current crisis.

How do they manage placements in Ukraine?

I think you'd be in for a very, very big shock if you tried living in most other countries, including many of the G20. I've lived and worked all over the world and what you seem to think about the UK being some backward, poorly resourced wasteland compared to other countries is just not factually correct.

I've also lived and worked all over the world, (well, three different countries, four if you count student years, all developed) . I've also travelled extensively. From the numbers I've looked up , the UK performs much better on child mortality and life expectancy than Ukraine. Speaking to my Ukrainian guest though, I do begin to wonder if we'd be better served (or importantly, believe ourselves to be better served and therefore happier) if we had medical services more like Ukraine. In that, maybe people survive more difficult health challenges and injuries in the UK than Ukraine and our medical services are tied up with those people, who would be in the minority. In Ukraine, maybe doctors are all kept busy treating minor illnesses in the healthy, these would be the majority, so therefore the majority are getting a lot of attention and are feeling well served and happy... Thinking out loud.

My Ukrainian guest also told me her child sees the doctor every six months for health check. This is normal treatment for children and part of government programme. Child is six.

Stress sometimes shows in the strangest ways- people fly off the handle at the small things. She’s probably scared, homesick and stressed. I would be patient with her.

Lol

Roast beef.😂😂😂
English food is bobbins though.

We're not bad cakes though.

If you want another example, my parent's cancer treatment was around £70K in Ukraine. There was no free option to treat it.
It works well for bau stuff, but anything serious, and you're on your own.

@fakenamefornow in my home country it was also routine for children to see a doctor probably every six months for a health check. I remember being on a Summer- Winter schedule. Adults once a year. I was very surprised that it isn’t the same in the U.K.

What the scientific data say about the efficacy of these visits I have no idea. They probably aren’t the most efficient way to diagnose disease, but that isn’t the same thing.

Haven't read whole thread but am curious to know how the situation is re heating. I've read lots threads where people from Ukraine like to have constant heat inside around 25 degrees and lots of hosts panicking about energy bills.

@Bednobsbroomsticks yes it’s true, they are used to warm houses and there was a shock for the early arrivers back in April when they realised Brits don’t have their heating on all the time

like everything, the sooner the host and guest have an honest and open convo that the heating will not be on 24/7 during the winter, the better. Alternatively hosts can ask guests to pay towards it.however, I’ve made the decision that I’m not going to put on the heating more than usual over the winter, regardless if they pay for it or not, as a)it’s a waste of energy b) it’s my home and I will run it the way I normally do

i honestly believe that having an open conversation about it is the only way to go, to avoid any misunderstandings etc

Heating is my worry since our guests are in a separate house and so I can’t control it.

Is the heating thing a hangover from the old soviet district heating systems?

Maybe they still have that over there?

On the subject of home comforts and nice to haves being accessible on what we'd consider to be low salaries. My one guest said she regularly has spa days with friends and was shocked at the price of these here. The other lady said it was standard to be able to do trips and go to events without having to save or budget. They are not wealthy people by our standards.

I have now instigated a no food outside the kitchen/diner rule to protect my walls and furniture. It is helping my anxiety!

British would be medical students are competing with those aforementioned Indian students and students from all around the world for limited places at British universities. Universities prefer international students as they can charge them higher fees.

It's incredibly hard to get a place on a medical degree here.

Plus the tories withdrew nhs bursaries making nursing a particularly poor choice economically. I imagine you're too busy to work when training as a nurse what with placements on shift patterns and having to travel to them on top of time in university and the pay at the end of it is not great. 27k debt in fees alone plus all of your accommodation and living costs for 3 years seems a lot given what you will actually make at the end of your investment.

Having in lived as a guest in another country for many years I quickly learned that there is nothing more irritating than someone from overseas continually telling locals how much better things are in their own country. It is basic manners not to do this regardless of the reason why you are there.

Years ago in London, I remember the countless Aussies I worked with going on and on about how much better everything is in Australia. I went to Australia expecting some kind of wonderland. I loved it but it certainly had its problems too. It is really annoying.

In reality we are all just used to what we were raised with. That is our comfort zone. There is good and bad points to every nation.

I totally get it. Rant away.