"You're in administration are you?"

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Waiting for a train and a guy started chatting to me to pass the time. Told me he had a 51 year old son so he must be in his 70s. When he discovered I work at a university he asked me the question in the subject line.

I asked him what made him say that and he just shrugged. I didn't say so, but I suspect it's because I'm a woman and also his generation.

Unreasonable to be wryly amused/slightly miffed? Not the first time it's happened and always men that say it.

Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with working in administration either btw.

Utter rubbish. I'm 65. I am working class. Women have always worked, women have always had careers, and the universities were chock full of women students and academics in the 60s and 70s. Just because someone is older doesn't mean they spent their youth in some concocted reality where women stayed at home or worked in menial jobs. There are plenty of people today who stay at home or have "menial jobs". It wasn't the stone age you know?

I think I'm tense about this issue because there's a whole training and research programme based on the sexism of being mistaken for admin! And it seems very offensive to me.

I can understand why you'd feel this way but that programme isn't about saying administration jobs are worth less (it used to really infuriate me when we were referred to as support staff!!) but it's about acknowledging the challenges of being a female academic, of which there are many!!

I can see why it could appear to be offensive though.

But being a janitor isn’t female dominated. Sorry perhaps I should have used the example of a drug dealer and footballer too? Because all have been assumed. Not all negative but it is the stereotyping due to race that offends.

Even for positive things like being assumed to be athletic.

Why does it matter what job strangers presume you do?

@brookstar - you appear to be telling me how to think and feel about sexism. Pot. Kettle. Or maybe we are both simply expressing our opinions.

Hear hear. It is full of snobbery, in the guise of feminism.

you appear to be telling me how to think and feel about sexism. Pot. Kettle.

I'm really not. I've been explaining why it's an issue. You can choose to agree or not.

You're the one telling people not to bother getting upset about it! Telling me to 'pick my battles' how bloody patronising.

I suspect you're just spoiling for an argument though 🤷🏼‍♀️

You're not being unreasonable to be amused / miffed but it simply is what it is, an older generation man assuming because you’re a woman you were in a secretarial type role. I’m sure he didn’t mean to offend you and his shrug was because he didn’t really have any reason to assume that other than back in his day it is probably what most woman would have done. This is only my thoughts as I have no idea about universities and the inner workings, who’s more important or higher paid, which actually has nothing to do with your post anyway!! (Double exclamation mark just in case I’m not making my point clear 😂😂)

Because if, on a societal level, people believe there are male or female jobs then this can have wide reaching consequences.

There's a significant amount of research on this subject.

Your first sentence is stretching credibility.

I'm an academic and my DH works in professional services- he earns almost double my salary and is far more important in relation to the actual running of the university!!

Your first sentence is stretching credibility.

I'm what way?

Oh yes, "support" staff. Really patronising title and glad it has gone. At my workplace, apparently they were once referred to as "non-academic" which is almost worse.

@Missisipihallelujah You've not grasped the point I was making. I was discussing the assumption that because I am female and employed by a university the default position was that I was not an academic. It's not that I look down on professional services staff, think I am too good to be one, or that I am smug because I'm an academic. It's about assumptions.

Someone suggested that I may not "look like an academic". I probably don't but then we are getting back to stereotypes and assumptions. Of course it doesn't matter what a complete stranger thinks I do or don't do at work. But it does matter in the general scheme of things if incorrect assumptions aren't challenged.

Thank you for replying! It's nice to hear positive stories. I would start at 35 as well and feel like I'd regret not going for it.

Well, obviously I could ensure I refer to racism and other inherent biases and examples of stereotyping in every thread, but this was a thread about inherent sexism, so I focused on the specific topic. Also, it is not a particularly good comparison to make, as administrator encompasses such a colossally wide field of work that to find it sexist or racist requires a few more steps than it takes if you are assumed to be a janitor or cleaner. Ideally, nobody would ever ask whether someone works in a particular field, in case they say the wrong thing, but nobody is perfect and people tend to look for things they might have in common and slant their questions accordingly. Sometimes their questions are inherently sexist or racist and sometimes they aren’t.

But it does matter in the general scheme of things if incorrect assumptions aren't challenged.

Exactly! Sex based stereotypes still exist and need to be challenged.

Or do people really think it's acceptable for children to think there are appropriate jobs for girls and appropriate jobs for boys? The impact this has on aspirations, education and career choices is huge. Once these ideas are ingrained they're very difficult to challenge.

People might think this is a non issue but there are lots of people who disagree. The government policy around careers education and guidance specifically talks about addressing stereotypes.

I have worked in education, first as support staff and later as teaching staff. Two lecturers laughed at me, when I was an Admin Mgr in a university, for doing my job, as I held an MA. Snobbery is rife in education, and sorry this is more about that than equality. The latter is hardly going to be impacted by harmless, albeit ignorant presumptions.

I was using an example to point out that men in this case a black man could be offended at being thought to do a stereotypical job. It isn’t just something women are over sensitive about. Womens concerns and feelings are often dismissed as such. It is fine for folks to point out when they have been on the receiving end of these biases though. If you just put up and shut up nothing changes. Challenging, even just discussing it can be good.

And actually i don’t think it is all that different as a black woman. I’ve been impacted by both sexism and racism. I know many would not agree. It does impact you as a child and teenager imagining what your life could be like and ultimately what you do.

I would guess that it was his interpretation of your saying 'I work at X University' rather than 'I teach/ do research in English/Mathematics/ whichever subject at X University'. There are of course a huge variety of academic jobs as well as administrative jobs and it may be easier to say 'I work at X university' than e.g. 'I am a postdoc in Prof Y's lab at X University and also lecture two days a week' or 'I am Head of the Y Department at X University and also help to run the Z collaboration between A, B. C and X Universities', etc. But someone outside the system, or even in it, may not always realize the variety.

He may just be sexist, but then I would expect him also to assume that administrative posts would be predominantly male-dominated.

I think your experience is way more indicative of real life implications of steretyping than the OP's example. I understand, though, that it is subjective and how we tend to view ignorance may vary from one person to another. In your case, the double ignorance of racism and sexism/discrimination must be bloody soul destroying, because it IS something that directly affects factors in your life; be it employment or relationship related.

I'm trying to think of the professional service staff in my department (as in course management and operations). There's 15, one has a PhD, 5 have degrees and one has a master's. That's the ones I know of.

I'm in admin and have been for 30+ years. I get paid well over $100k, plus super and other benefits. I work for high net worth individuals and am involved in many high level decisions in the workplace. I've never been ashamed of being in admin, it's served me very well over the years and I've never been out of work, ever. Frankly, career admin is an excellent and highly skilled job that's transferable to just about any industry, which makes getting jobs easy. I used to get pissed off with people who made assumptions about admin, but with years of experience, I'd say my job is a lot more stable than most!

Yes indeed. I am not sure why these lecturers thought it amusing that as a holder of an MA, I shouldn't be in admin. It is quite common for many university admin jobs to require first degrees.

What evidence is there that women don’t enter academia because they do not think it is a woman’s role? Or is it other issues holding them back?

Does the Government literature focus much on encouraging men into nursing, social care, childcare or primary school teaching? I am fully aware of drives to encourage more women into STEM subjects, and to get to the highest levels in their fields of work. I have no experience of similar drives to persuade more men to consider roles that are more nurturing. How does society actually benefit from everyone being pushed to take a traditionally male perspective on the value of different types of work? For every push to encourage more women to get involved in traditionally male-dominated spheres of life, there needs to be an equal and opposite push to encourage men to be get involved in traditionally female-dominated spheres, or the imbalance will continue.

Absolutely fantastic post. 👏