"You're in administration are you?"

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Waiting for a train and a guy started chatting to me to pass the time. Told me he had a 51 year old son so he must be in his 70s. When he discovered I work at a university he asked me the question in the subject line.

I asked him what made him say that and he just shrugged. I didn't say so, but I suspect it's because I'm a woman and also his generation.

Unreasonable to be wryly amused/slightly miffed? Not the first time it's happened and always men that say it.

Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with working in administration either btw.

My friends kids go to a fairly expensive private school. Her husband is black. They went to a summer party for the year 7 parents and three (three!) people asked him if he was in the music business.
she said with the last one she was itching to say “No, he’s a drug dealer”
He’s actually got his own successful business in textiles.
People can be such twats at times.

This is one of the most non event threads I've ever read on here. And also quite insulting to administrators!

Yes, you're being unreasonable since 70% of working women are in the service industry (which includes admin.) so if he's interested and wants to have a guess, his best guess should be admin.

Note that you have made some assumptions and guesses about him e.g. that his reason for asking you the question was that he's a chauvinist because of his age. Since you're not obliged to speak to him, he can certainly ask you whatever he wants. One of the risks of going out in public is that total strangers can approach and attempt to communicate.

I can think of other possible reasons for his question e.g. he may have just been reading a Sherlock Holmes story and had made an observation about you that prompted his question (to see if he could make brilliant deductions about what people do, as Holmes does).

Here's another thought: He's entitled to be a chauvinist. His opinion doesn't hurt you. The data on which gender does what work is all in and everyone is entitled to their opinion as to what it signifies or on what value one wants to place on different professions or even ways of life e.g. if more women work part time than men.

A lot of administrators are total wasters, tin-pot Napoleons who seem to enjoy making people's lives difficult for no good reason. I've suffered at the hands of such administrators more times than I can count and every one have been women. Example: I'd been to my doctor for a letter that I needed and arranged to collect it from reception. When I turned up, the woman demanded £10. I said that I wasn't aware that there'd be a charge. She told me that all doctor's letters are charged and that was the amount I had to pay. Thinking along the lines of the NHS supposedly being free at the point of use, I asked if there was any concession for people on benefits (as I am because of my illness). She said no.

Her attitude was matter of fact and deadpan, no attempt to be helpful or even friendly, not a single smile when I first approached the window; and she was holding the letter (in an unsealed, blank, envelope i.e. it was obviously not an important document that might somehow warrant a charge to cover administration costs). I could easily have snatched it and run off but I had to go back home and come back later with the money. I did this, paid the money grudgingly (because I felt it was wrong given that the doctor hadn't said a thing about any charge) took my letter and walked away - yet before I had gone very far the manager came running up to me with my £10. She apologised and told me that there had been no charge. The admin woman had simply made an executive decision to impose one.

There have also been all manner of serious administrative blunders in the UK that I've noticed, the like of which never used to happen e.g. in the news today a woman supposedly under the care of a mental health team died and was left rotting for 6 weeks because the team had 'lost track'. Baby P springs to mind - another tragic administrative blunder that the woman responsible had allowed to happen previously (with poor Victoria Climbie) and vowed that 'lessons would be learned'.

I think you need to read the full thread.

Off topic, but what do you lecture in, op?
I'd love to pursue my PhD and become an academic, working at a university but I'm 33 and just not sure if the that ship has sailed. People just put me off saying how difficult it is to get into.

I don't think it's a bad comment as it's not a bad job but I get what you mean. Don't think he meant any harm x

Something can be sexist even if the intention wasn't to be offensive or intentionally sexist.

The vast majority of sexism isn't malicious it's simply due to deeply ingrained views and unconscious biases.

I think it's really important to challenge casual, everyday sexism both personally and professionally.
Women do not participate in the labour market equally. Men are still paid more, over represented in particular sectors and are more likely to hold a senior position- why is this? It's due to sexism, societal expectations and unconscious biases.

You might think it's ridiculous to get wound up my men being referred to as babysitters of their own children- but it matters. Language matters. It suggests that women are the primary carers and men step in when women aren't available. This is indicative of how society views the roles of men and women in relation to childcare, which impacts how and when women can work.

You might be happy to ignore sexism when you see it but some of us feel quite strongly about it.

There isn't really a female equivalent to "sir". Some women get offended by "Madame". Americans use "Maam" but I've never heard it used here.

@ImJustMadAboutSaffron

There are plenty of people in administration paid much more than I am and who make decisions about us lecturers!

It’s the use of the exclamation mark that gives away your general annoyance with University Admin who rarely make any decisions concerning Lecturers.

I think you’ll find it’s the tedious committees of mostly senior academics who make the decisions affecting teaching staff. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@brookstar - I am a woman. I was referred to as babysitting. You are conveniently ignoring this, or even worse, denying it is humanly possible, because it doesn’t suit your argument. Every thread on Mumsnet is full of ridiculous arguments due to misinterpretation of other people’s intended meaning and thought processes. You can’t claim always to know better than the person who said something why they said what they did and what they meant by it. You are every bit as affected as anyone else by your own prejudices and obsessions. So I say, pick your battles, there is no need to poison every interaction you ever have by seeking out unintended sexism. Social interactions work better and people are less likely to be teetering on the edge of taking offence if they give each other the benefit of the doubt when it does them no harm to do so. An elderly man on a train station platform is not going to benefit from being told he is sexist for asking a question, he’s just going to talk less to strangers for fear of unintentionally causing offence. Many people feel isolated enough as it is.

Don't know, I've been called "madam" quite a lot (and not just with "little" before it when I was 5 )

It really should have been love/love or sir/madam.

It's not about the "event" itself but rather a debate on what the event represented. Do we still have a patriarchal approach over 100 years after women were allowed to vote and almost 50 years since the equal pay act?

Physical sciences and I know of someone who graduated in a first degree (integrated masters) and then did a PhD at 35 and went on to have a career as a professor. She was my dissertation supervisor for my first degree. So go for it!

I am a woman. I was referred to as babysitting. You are conveniently ignoring this, or even worse, denying it is humanly possible, because it doesn’t suit your argument.

I'm not ignoring it. It's just incredibly rare for women to be referred to as babysitters for their own children. If it's how you talk about caring for your children then fine.
However, it is well known for men to be referred to as babysitters and for people to talk about men babysitting their children. I've not made that up.
It's in the same category as men helping their wives with childcare and housework rather than sharing the responsibility.

Every thread on Mumsnet is full of ridiculous arguments due to misinterpretation of other people’s intended meaning and thought processes. You can’t claim always to know better than the person who said something why they said what they did and what they meant by it. You are every bit as affected as anyone else by your own prejudices and obsessions. So I say, pick your battles, there is no need to poison every interaction you ever have by seeking out unintended sexism.

Are you telling me how to think and feel about sexism and sexist remarks? I have picked my battle - this is my battle!!

I don't poison every interaction but I will challenge when appropriate. As I've said numerous times, sexism ( just like racism ) doesn't always have to be intentional. Just because someone didn't mean to be sexist or racist doesn't mean it's any less sexist or racist.
Challenging these comments or behaviours doesn't have to be aggressive. Sometimes you don't challenge them immediately.... people are capable of reading a situation.

The theme for international womens day this year was 'break the bias' and was about challenging these 'micro aggressions' (not my choice of language) it was about challenging the little things because they do make a difference. most people are intentionally sexist but that doesn't mean they should continue being sexist!
Through my job and my research I see the consequences of deeply ingrained sexist views.

Social interactions work better and people are less likely to be teetering on the edge of taking offence if they give each other the benefit of the doubt when it does them no harm to do so. An elderly man on a train station platform is not going to benefit from being told he is sexist for asking a question, he’s just going to talk less to strangers for fear of unintentionally causing offence. Many people feel isolated enough as it is.

Again, with the telling people how to manage their social interactions!!
I don't think people are 'teetering on the edge of taking offence' it's more that were just more aware and heightened to sexist remarks. That doesn't mean we're aggressive to everyone..... in this situation I would have just explained that I was an academic and left it at that. There would be no benefit to telling an elderly man that I considered his remark sexist. I would probably have a little rant about it later though!

You might not think this is important but what gives you the right to tell other people it shouldn't matter to them either? That's just arrogant.

I'm sure there are things you're passionate about that other people don't understand.

I use exclamation marks a lot. I've not grown out of it. It doesn't reveal hidden parts of my personality or attitudes.

I've been debating what my own response would have been to this situation - because I am the same age as the OP and I do work in administration at a University at a fairly senior level. I know the situation isn't the same but I don't think the question would have got me pondering the perceived value of my career in the eyes of a stranger and what it meant I could and couldn't do.

What I find depressing about this whole thread is that it has descended into us (myself included) arguing about the assumptions of others and how job roles and sex are represented. I don't think anyone is arguing that sexism exists and women face a battle in the workplace whatever their role. We should be finding ways to support each other

@FatBettyintheCoop I've no annoyance with university administration.

We should be finding ways to support each other

I absolutely agree.
For those who work in higher education I'd really recommend joining the Women's Higher Education Network (WHEN). It's free!
They represent all university staff.

Their reports on the impact of covid on womens careers are very insightful.... and depressing!

Their report 'sharing the caring' looked specifically at professional services staff and the impact of having caring responsibilities during lockdown.

Yes! This is a little peeve of mine, but I wouldn’t criticise the OP for it on this occasion, it annoys me more when people do it as a easy brag/status claim.

ILs when gossiping/bragging/competing re friends’ children etc, will say things like ‘he works at Freshfields’, without telling me about his profession/role. I feel like saying, yes but what does he do? Cleaner, security, IT manager?

@ImJustMadAboutSaffron - yes, but then what do you expect if you accept the structures and hierarchies that held women down for so long and just try to shoehorn women into the male-created structures and hierarchies? Infinitely more effort goes into encouraging women to consider careers that are currently dominated by men than goes into encouraging men to consider careers currently dominated by women. In fact, women are often those most resistant to men entering the female sphere. Society does not benefit from simply converting what used to be seen as “women’s work” into, “you aren’t good enough for anything else work,” but that is the message given out by drives to get women into higher positions in the patriarchy as these drives implicitly indicate that traditionally female roles are inferior and confer lower status and power.

I don't know then, it probably varies. I usually say "I work at the university" when I deliberately don't want to say. But yeah maybe it just depends. I think I'm tense about this issue because there's a whole training and research programme based on the sexism of being mistaken for admin! And it seems very offensive to me. But also I have admin and project manager friends who work at the uni and get offended by being mistaken for academics.

I'm delighted you wouldn't criticise me for answering the guy by telling him where I worked, because that was exactly what he asked me, not what I did. We were discussing length of time to walk to the station, rather than professions.

ILs when gossiping/bragging/competing re friends’ children etc, will say things like ‘he works at Freshfields’, without telling me about his profession/role. I feel like saying, yes but what does he do? Cleaner, security, IT manager?

to be fair my mum doesn’t actually have a clue what I do.

years ago I had many colleagues that would not say more than “work at the university”- in reality they did mouse and rat studies. But back then telling people that was an actual physical risk.

lots of people have reasons for not specifying what they do. I am not allowed to go into detail, so I often let people assume. Some of my colleague fabricate jobs, some just don’t say.