"You're in administration are you?"

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Waiting for a train and a guy started chatting to me to pass the time. Told me he had a 51 year old son so he must be in his 70s. When he discovered I work at a university he asked me the question in the subject line.

I asked him what made him say that and he just shrugged. I didn't say so, but I suspect it's because I'm a woman and also his generation.

Unreasonable to be wryly amused/slightly miffed? Not the first time it's happened and always men that say it.

Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with working in administration either btw.

I was thinking something similar, on the phrasing point. A new friend once asked me where I work, I told her I work in a law firm. Years later she was surprised when I told her I was a solicitor. She’d assumed I was a secretary.

@brookstar - do you mean people assume you do your dh’s role and, because they are assuming it is you doing that, think that it is less well paid and prestigious than it actually is; or do you think it has anything to do with the way you and he come across to them as people? Because, tbh, I find it odd that so many people would assume you are not an academic but that your dh is, as I know plenty of people have stereotypical ideas of what “academics” are like (male and female), but don’t personally have experience of people who think only men are academics.

Does your dh get annoyed that people think he is an academic?

when in court I am frequently mistaken for the defendant.....once when in QC´s silks

do you mean people assume you do your dh’s role and, because they are assuming it is you doing that, think that it is less well paid and prestigious than it actually is; or do you think it has anything to do with the way you and he come across to them as people?
It's nothing to do with how prestigious the job is and everything to do with the fact he's male, older than me and the fact that people find it difficult to believe that someone who looks like me is an academic. I've had a number of people say that to me - apparently academics don't have platinum blonde hair, wear heels and make up. I've genuinely had people say I look more like a hairdresser, whatever that means 🙄
I know I'm not the only one. There was a Twitter campaign a couple of years ago which was aimed at challenging what academics look like.

Because, tbh, I find it odd that so many people would assume you are not an academic but that your dh is, as I know plenty of people have stereotypical ideas of what “academics” are like (male and female), but don’t personally have experience of people who think only men are academics.

People do make assumptions about the sex of an academic. There was a thread last night where people automatically used 'he' and 'him' when the OP hadn't mentioned the sex of the academic they were talking about. That's not uncommon.
I've turned up to do talks in schools and had people say they were expecting a man.

Does your dh get annoyed that people think he is an academic?

He gets annoyed that people find it incredulous that I'm an academic. He's seen first hand the challenges female academics face.

He definitely shouldn't be assuming.
I get the opposite. I work in Finance, but when I say I work in a uni, I get asked if I'm a lecturer!

@brookstar - it does sound more like the stereotype of an academic in general is the main problem you face, rather than your sex . I should imagine they would be equally incredulous if a young man who dressed and looked like a bodybuilder said he was an academic and his older wife who looked like Mary Beard said she was a hairdresser or director.

As for assumptions and pronouns, tbh, whatever pronoun is used these days, it seems to cause a problem of one sort or another - if one says “one,” one is made to feel archaic and unnatural; use “you,” and people take comments personally rather than understanding them to be generalisations; “they,” and some people find this confusing and think it is intended to be a plural; “he” and it is offensive because it cannot be used to as a shorthand for either sex; he/she and it is unwieldy, tiresome to keep using and doesn’t account for gender neutrality. It is quite hard to communicate these days in a way that is universally understood and tolerated, because everyone has a different reason to take offence and very few oeople are willing to be tolerant and give someone the benefit of the doubt.

Strange what can cause irritation in some folk.
Some are fortunate to have work.

Their pound buys the same.
Strange.

But sex does play a part. I'm not making that up! There's plenty of research to support that.
Im not just basing it on my experience- although it does illustrate the point!

That doesn't mean everyone assumes that all academics are male or that it happens to all academics, but it is a thing!

I chair my university's Athena Swan committee- it's a particular passion of mine.

It's not a race to the bottom!!
It's still important to challenge unconscious bias!

Once again, another thread on Mumsnet where it makes me realise that whatever you say someone will be offended.

I have come to the conclusion that I have probably spent my whole life offending people!

And this thread is a case in point - two people apparently being friendly and chatting to pass the time of day and the atmosphere is suddenly poisoned by a simple question that was clearly never intended to cause offence, but merely trying to extend the conversation. He may have known someone who worked in administration at the university, but felt more out of his depth trying to establish connections with an academic, if that wasn’t his own background. There are so many kinder interpretations of his faux pas that do not immediately boil down to sexism and it is frankly a shame if simple interactions are so easily poisoned.

There are so many kinder interpretations of his faux pas that do not immediately boil down to sexism and it is frankly a shame if simple interactions are so easily poisoned.

Unfortunately when you experience sexism time and time again it becomes quite difficult to ignore and easier to recognise. In most cases it's not intentional and is the result of deeply ingrained unconscious biases and stereotypes but it's still frustrating.

For example, I've come out for a drink with my friends. An older man I know just asked me if DH is babysitting. It's a sexist comment that DH would never get asked.
There was no malice behind it but it's still sexist and I rolled my eyes.

😂😂 this.

Normally I wouldn't. But I don't know some men make such stupid comments sometimes they are begging for it. There are tens/hundreds of jobs she could be doing at a university, it's stupid to assume.

@brookstar - well, you know the older man and I don’t, so it may well be sexist, but I wouldn’t find it odd for my dh to be asked if I was babysitting, or vice versa, if one of us was out for a drink without the other one evening, when our children were small enough to need babysitting. I have no experience of mutual friends and acquaintances suggesting my dh can be described as a babysitter of his own children and I cannot, or that it is somehow offensive to describe staying in to look after the kids while your other half is out having fun, as babysitting. It’s what someone would be doing if we were both out without our children, so just a lazy way of finding out whether we have a babysitter, or one of us is being the “babysitter” that night.

I'd have said the same tbh.. Normally when people teach they say

"i lecture/teach at xxxx university"...

I can see how your case is different because you were specifically talking about the location of your workplace. But also to be fair, most people who say they work in a university are admin because if you're an academic you say "I'm an academic".

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that your DH has ever been asked if you are babysitting your children.
I think you're being deliberately facetious now.....

It's a well known phenomenon that when men look after their own children it's considered 'babysitting'. Nobody ever uses this language towards women.

@DaisyFleabane callously? Really? This man, my granddad, who I loved by the way, was not a very nice person at all. If you're happy to spend your time talking with a misogynistic, xenophobic and homophobic man, who thought it was acceptable to give my nan a slap when he thought she deserved it, and who told my mum, his DIL, that a woman's job was done when she'd finished in the kitchen and her knickers were pulled up, then you crack on.

My comment was about how he thought that women were inferior and men superior, and yes, I'm glad that kind of attitude is dying out.

Incorrect. My dad was always offended as a black man for being assumed to be the cleaner/janitor. Not because those roles are important but beacuse of racist assumptions. Women, minorities, anyone marginalised and looked down upon always has to fight stereotypes.

No, I am not being facetious. He has been asked! It was a woman who asked him, so maybe she was being facetious?!

Say 'Nothing so grand as admin, I'm afraid...I'm just a humble lecturer/professor/vice-chancellor etc. We rely on our admin people...'

You haven’t read my post properly, have you? I said men never appear to be offended by assumptions they are university professors or medical doctors, I didn’t say men would not be offended to be assumed to be a caretaker.

DH and I met at university. We were at Oxford. After we were married I discovered that for ages FIL thought I’d gone to Oxford Brookes (apparently because I’m blonde and female) 🤦🏼‍♀️. (Not saying there is anything wrong with Brookes btw just another eg of older man making ridiculous assumptions…)

No, I am not being facetious. He has been asked! It was a woman who asked him, so maybe she was being facetious?!

Or just a plain old sexist 🤷🏼‍♀️