"You're in administration are you?"

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Waiting for a train and a guy started chatting to me to pass the time. Told me he had a 51 year old son so he must be in his 70s. When he discovered I work at a university he asked me the question in the subject line.

I asked him what made him say that and he just shrugged. I didn't say so, but I suspect it's because I'm a woman and also his generation.

Unreasonable to be wryly amused/slightly miffed? Not the first time it's happened and always men that say it.

Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with working in administration either btw.

Thus is reminding me of the time when an older man at a dinner party given by my friends’ parents just couldn’t get his head around the fact I was at Oxford (which is how I knew the friend -/ we’d gone to visit in the vac). ‘At the secretarial college, I assume?’ is what he actually said, then he haw-hawed and tried to make me admit I was at Oxford Brookes. He looked very out out.

I tend to agree. I could not do my job without professional service staff.

Oh, posted too soon. I actually became an academic, and a significant number of students assumed that two women in an office must mean we were the secretaries, despite the fact that our titles were clearly marked on the door. Never happened to the two male junior lecturers next door…

I tend to agree. I could not do my job without professional service staff.

Me neither. They're that backbone of my university- my course management team are fabulous.

The fact remains, it is always women being offended by these assumptions. Nobody ever suggests a man should be offended if it is assumed he is a medical doctor or university professor. The fact remains, women are offended by “sexist assumptions” because female dominated roles are underpaid and looked down upon for no good reason - there would be no reason whatsoever otherwise to take offence at any assumptions made.

So yes, you are all 100% buying into an unconscious bias, however much you spout the platitudes that you couldn’t cope with all your wonderfully underpaid, sexist-stereotype underlings. It sounds exactly like men who used to say they couldn’t cope without their secretary/PA.

Why do you think it's women who are offended by this? I mean, it seems obvious to me but you seem to think we've missed something.

Do you think sex based stereotypes aren't a problem? Do you not think they're worth challenging?
Do you think i should just find it amusing that people assume my husband is an academic instead of me? And when I use the title Dr Brook that people assume that's my husband?

When I'm praising my course management team I'm referring to my male school manager, the male senior course administrator, the female student records manger, the female course administrator and the male course assistant.

Why are you assuming we're referring to female staff?

Again, it's not about being referred to as administrative staff. It's the assumption that we couldn't possibly be academics. There's a difference.

Spot on.

I think you are missing the point - why would you be offended if you are admin? Are you too good for that sort of job? He took a pot luck chance at guessing your job role within the uni, maybe because you were friendly and chatty he thought it was unlikely you were a snooty academic who looks down on others. Ironic really 😂

maybe because you were friendly and chatty he thought it was unlikely you were a snooty academic who looks down on others.

I wonder if the man who laughed in my face and said 'fuck off, that's not your job' just thought I was friendly and chatty 🤷🏼‍♀️ maybe I should have been flattered 🤔

I can't believe you've said this after 8 or 9 pages as it's clear you're the one missing the point. You've probably only read the first post and maybe a couple of others.

@brookstar - I’m not assuming you are referring to female staff, I’m saying you think the admin roles are worth less, as assumptions about roles have no particular bite otherwise. You are bitten by them though, aren’t you? When people make these assumptions, you also make assumptions about what they mean by it, and your assumptions always diminish the role they refer to to the lowest possible level. You assume they are thinking the “lowest of the low,” you don’t assume administration in the person’s head could mean head of the civil service, for example. Well, in my head, administration does not mean typing up letters for people and I really don’t think that’s what it would mean in the head of someone in their 70s either. Secretaries were not referred to as administrators when that man was in the world of work and administrators were not predominantly women. So, it really depends on your own bias as to the assumptions you make, and yours appears to be very negatively inclined towards any reference to administration.

and me!

Talking about a new car I'm buying, getting asked: so, what car did your DH pick for you?
The colleague who asked the question didn't forget the answer yet and it's been few years.

Is it not because there are probably more nurses in a hospital than any other profession so that was most likely?

I’m not assuming you are referring to female staff, I’m saying you think the admin roles are worth less, as assumptions about roles have no particular bite otherwise.
Wrong. I'm not saying these roles are worth less. I don't believe that at all - I used to do one of those roles. It's about assuming women aren't capable of doing an academic role.

When people make these assumptions, you also make assumptions about what they mean by it, and your assumptions always diminish the role they refer to to the lowest possible level. You assume they are thinking the “lowest of the low,” you don’t assume administration in the person’s head could mean head of the civil service, for example. Well, in my head, administration does not mean typing up letters for people and I really don’t think that’s what it would mean in the head of someone in their 70s either. Secretaries were not referred to as administrators when that man was in the world of work and administrators were not predominantly women.

You're making some huge assumptions here. I don't think administration means typing letters. My area of study is career development and specifically womens career development. It's my job to know about jobs. It's also my job to research unconscious bias around job roles specifically in relation to sec based stereotypes.

You're really missing the point I'm making, it's not about the administration job, they could have said any non-academic job (some of which pay significantly more than an academic role) it's the assumption that women aren't academics. It's about looking at a woman who works at a university and assuming she does any job other than being an academic.

As I've mentioned im an academic and my husband works in professional services. He is more senior than me and earns significantly more. People always assume he is the academic and that I do his job. It pisses me off, not because people assume I work in professional services but because people assume I'm not an academic.

So, it really depends on your own bias as to the assumptions you make, and yours appears to be very negatively inclined towards any reference to administration.

I think you could do with checking your own biases as you've made a number of incorrect assumptions about me.
At no point have I suggested I'm negative about administrative roles. I'm just sick of people assuming women aren't academics!

Also, @brookstar, what’s with the assumption that someone thinks you couldn’t possibly be an academic if they assume something else first off? When it comes to use of language and assumptions, if you are a person who finds assumptions problematic, then you have no business making so many assumptions of your own. If someone thinks you are an administrator and you are not, you could be flattered they appear to think you have excellent organisational and managerial abilities if you made different assumptions about administrators, rather than apparently assuming yourself, or assuming that everyone else assumes, that an academic could be an administrator if they so wished, but an administrator would never be capable of being an academic.

And it was the OP who assumed the elderly man she was talking to was thinking she had a role that would involve typing up letters for people - so definitely her assumption, thus increasing the offence she took.

I don't think a guy at a party or a train station, met fleetingly, is going to think that deeply about it.

what’s with the assumption that someone thinks you couldn’t possibly be an academic if they assume something else first off?

What wrong with it do you mean?
Lots. The same goes for any job that is dominated by one particular sex.
If I'm a societal level we associate a particular job with one sex then this has wide reaching implications. It impacts children's views on particular careers which impacts education and career choices ( we know that children start to see jobs as suitable for male/females from around age 6/7). It influences decisions made by recruitment and selection panels (if their unconscious bias tells them men are more suitable - again lots of research around this particularly in relation to academia). It means we perpetuate inequalities.
It's important.

When it comes to use of language and assumptions, if you are a person who finds assumptions problematic, then you have no business making so many assumptions of your own.
What assumptions have I made?

If someone thinks you are an administrator and you are not, you could be flattered they appear to think you have excellent organisational and managerial abilities if you made different assumptions about administrators, rather than apparently assuming yourself, or assuming that everyone else assumes, that an academic could be an administrator if they so wished, but an administrator would never be capable of being an academic.

Again, please tell me where I've made these assumptions?

@brookstar - yes, I understand unconscious bias can and does perpetuate inequalities, but not acknowledging that the value of traditionally female dominated roles is not accurately perceived by society and not fighting against this, doesn’t help society change for the better in the long term, it just condemns some roles to being viewed by a great many people as roles you take, male or female, if you couldn’t find something more important and prestigious to do. It is not an improvement if both men and women are always encouraged to favour being a doctor over a nurse; or to be an academic over an administrator.

A lot of work rightly goes into encouraging women to think of careers in STEM subjects, to think of becoming doctors, to keep going with their careers and get into more positions of power. There is absolutely no equivalent effort to encourage men to become nurses or carers, or effective administrators. The effort is simply funnelling everyone in the same direction, thus continuing to discredit the roles that women used to do but are now told they may well only be choosing to do as a result of unconscious bias.

Playing devil's advocate - as you accept that there are lots of 'administration' roles that are actually more senior and better paid than academic ones, how do you know he wasn't complimenting you by assuming perhaps you were a Senior Project Manager or Director of IT at the university and on £90K per year rather than a lowly academic? Isn't there a possibility that you yourself are a) assuming he thinks admin=unimportant or derogatory and b) assuming that because he is old he is sexist?
He could even have just been operating on the balance of probabilities - there are a lot more people involved in the large umbrella of 'administrative' than academics.

Perhaps he was being sexist -but you don't know, you are basing that solely on assumptions about him!

yes, I understand unconscious bias can and does perpetuate inequalities, but not acknowledging that the value of traditionally female dominated roles is not accurately perceived by society and not fighting against this, doesn’t help society change for the better in the long term, it just condemns some roles to being viewed by a great many people as roles you take, male or female, if you couldn’t find something more important and prestigious to do. It is not an improvement if both men and women are always encouraged to favour being a doctor over a nurse; or to be an academic over an administrator.

I agree with you. However, you have been accusing me of not valuing these roles. That couldn't be further from the truth.

A lot of work rightly goes into encouraging women to think of careers in STEM subjects, to think of becoming doctors, to keep going with their careers and get into more positions of power. There is absolutely no equivalent effort to encourage men to become nurses or carers, or effective administrators.
Actually, you're wrong. I've worked on projects to encourage boys into considering female dominated professions. They don't get as much attention and there aren't as many but they do exist.

The effort is simply funnelling everyone in the same direction, thus continuing to discredit the roles that women used to do but are now told they may well only be choosing to do as a result of unconscious bias.

This becomes quite complicated. We know that girls and women make career and education choices differently to boys and men and we know that much of this is due to unconscious bias and societal expectations- for example, women will choice jobs which are flexible and family friendly even before they have children in preparation for taking on more childcare responsibilities.
Raising aspirations can be quite contentious and we need to be careful not devalue career choices because they aren't traditionally aspirational while ensuring young people can reach their potential and become a doctor if they want to.

Playing devil's advocate - as you accept that there are lots of 'administration' roles that are actually more senior and better paid than academic ones, how do you know he wasn't complimenting you by assuming perhaps you were a Senior Project Manager or Director of IT at the university and on £90K per year rather than a lowly academic? Isn't there a possibility that you yourself are a) assuming he thinks admin=unimportant or derogatory and b) assuming that because he is old he is sexist?

This actually happens to me. As I've said, it's not about the job role it's the assumptions being made about the role of an academic.
My DH is a director at a uni and is paid significantly more than me but people assume that I do that job and that he is the academic.
It still pisses me off!