Friends child hurting my baby

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We are currently on holiday in a lodge. There are 4 adults and 7 kids. One of my friends, let's call her Sarah, has two boys, 7 and 3. I have a 3 month old baby.

My friends child, the 3 year old, is, in my opinion, out of control. He has constant tantrums, if you ask him to do anything, he screams and shouts. He wanted to come to the shops with me yesterday, I had no car seat for him to come so I said to him 'I'm sorry sweetheart but I don't have a car seat for you but I'll bring you back a treat'. Well, he started pulling on and swinging on my car door handle, kicking the car, screaming the place down. I genuinely thought he was going going pull the handle off and do damage. Another time my baby was in his bouncy chair and he began grabbing it and violently bouncing it up and down. His mum told him to stop but he just defiantly looked her in the eye, maintaining eye contact while bouncing it even harder. I had to run over to physically intervene.

Anyway these are just a few examples of his behaviour to give background to his behaviour in general. The situation broke down last night. Her 3 year old boy keeps throwing things at my baby. I don't know if it's jealousy or whatever but he'll pick up hairbrushes, remote controls, just anything and lob them at him. His mum weakly says 'no, don't do that' but he continues. Over and over. I'll be holding my baby and have to turn my back to protect him yet the avalanch of things being chucked at us continues. It isn't just on holiday this has happened. Well the throwing things hasn't happened before but he has threatened to kick my baby and always does sly little things like pretending to put a blanket on him to keep him warm and actually slamming it down on him, hurting him, lying on the settee beside us 'accidentally' moving his legs but actually kicking my baby....etc.

Yesterday it came to a head. I have had to continuously say to the kid, come on 'Paul' (not his real name), come on, stop that, you're going to hurt baby, you can't do that etc etc...but he doesn't care about getting in trouble. Anyway, yesterday, his mum, 'Sarah', confronted me, saying "you're always nipping at him, he's just doing it because he is hot/bored/wanting attention etc". I said yes, that's all very well, but the fact still remains that whatever the reason is behind his behaviour, he is deliberately hurting my baby and he knows what he is doing. She got extremely defensive and it came to a bit of a head. We are OK now but I'm currently packing to go home today (we aren't meant to leave till Sunday) just so that I can protect my baby from this.

I realise that kids do behave badly at times , I realise it's normal but I don't know what level is normal? Is this normal behaviour? I don't have a 3 year old myself so I don't know. Am I being unreasonable by nipping at him to stop? Am I bring unreasonable to expect him to not act like this? As I say, his mum does say 'no, don't do that' but that does absolutely nothing to control or curb his behaviour.

It's definitely not normal, I've been a children's nanny for over 30 years and none of the many children I've looked after have ever behaved like this, neither would I allow them to. I can only assume the people who are saying it's normal behaviour have children who act the same and have no boundaries. I'd also be getting rid of the friend.

"I do sympathise with you but I can't help but think you don't understand what3 year olds are like and how frustrated their parents can feel"

If you have a child with unsafe behaviour due to age or any other reason you need to be next to them and watching constantly to stop them doing it. I still have to do with my 16 year old in many situations due to his understanding. It's part of being a parent.

You don’t have a 3YO problem, you have a parenting problem.

The other mother is completely and utterly unreasonable.

Now you know.

And completely agree with a PP that your response to ‘he’s just looking for attention’ should have been, ‘well, give it to him’.

Good on your for packing up and leaving.

And yes, the 3YO’s behaviour is normal-ish - what’s not OK is the pathetic, ineffectual parenting from his mother (and father?).

If you read my post and my subsequent replies, you'll understand why I went on holiday with them. There has been the odd dig before, the odd putting a blanket down on him hard, things that I'd expect a jealous/slightly naughty 3 year old to perhaps do. And stuff that I can control by keeping him away from the baby ie monitoring how gently he handles the baby when he comes over. This new behaviour of throwing numerous objects at my baby from across the room is different in that it can't be controlled or stopped by me if I'm across the room holding baby in my arms.

The mother is ridiculous. She needs to take control of her kid's bratty, nasty behaviour and not facilitate it. So sorry you have had this experience, it will definitely have an effect on your friendship all because she can't control her child.

I had a Sarah/Paul situation once. The first playdate at my house was the last.

Stick to your guns - looking back, you'll be proud that you took a strong stance and protected your baby. So yes I think you're right to leave early and I would also cut all contact with that family.

You did the right thing. And just to be aware, it might not stop when the 3 yr old gets older. The 3 yr old could become slyer about it as he gets older and wiser. I had all this with my nephew. There were many arguments between me and the sister over the years.

Why the hell did you go on holiday with her and this nightmare brat of hers...?

I'd not say another word to her, leave and cut her off. Forever!

She has shown blatant disregard for your baby's wellbeing and shown that in her eyes her little darlings feelings are more important than your young baby's safety!

I hate spiteful spoiled brats and parents who enable them.

What shit parents her and her bloke are, imagine whining at someone for not allowing your kid to attack their baby. Holiday sounds awful, anyway- 7 kids?!

My three year old would not do this as knows how to behave. If he did and the usual remedies (punishments) didn't work. WE would be leaving. If she can't control her son's behaviour to this extent she shouldn't have gone on a joint holiday.

Most of it sounds fairly normal behaviour for a hot tired 3 year old.

What's not normal is such a weak intervention by his parents to stop the behaviour at the very start. Once the throwing started etc he need a very firm work and much closer supervision. I'd be going home too.

YANBU I have a 3 year old and a baby I would not accept my 3 year old doing that whatsoever and he would get in serious trouble for 1 of those behaviours let alone all not them!
Your friend clearly can't or doesn't want to control her child you have go protect your baby

Whatever you're reading, it obviously isn't the OP's posts, otherwise you would have known that she was already packing up to go home.

I cannot believe they didn't intervene when the kid was kicking your car! Did they just stand and watch?

Nevermind the baby stuff. You have been much calmer than I would of been in the same situation.

She agreed that it was probably for the best as she didn't want him getting hurt. I was a bit taken aback by that but 1. I'm not going to stay to let him be hurt so I'm leaving regardless and 2. I didn't know if I was being unreasonable by not accepting his behaviour as I don't have much experience with this age group. So I just kind of shook my head and went to my bedroom with the baby. Usually I'd lose my head, I can be quite hot tempered at times but this is a completely new situation to me and I didn't know if I was being the unreasonable one or not.

@Merryoldgoat As in behaviour is a spectrum. There will always be a big range of 'normal' behaviour. From kids that are quite chilled and easy going by nature all the way through to to opposite of that. Most kids fall in the middle somewhere. So what the OP describes would be normal 3y/o behaviour, just the more extreme end of tantruming and attention seeking etc.

I'm surprised so many people think it's not normal. I've always disciplined my toddler DS (almost 3) when he's displayed any of the behaviours the OP mentioned. It didn't stop it in one go and he certainly didn't stop when he thought he may have hurt the baby. There is still a big difference between a just turned 3 and an almost 4 y/o though. So perhaps that's the difference. I'm comparing the child in the OP to my DS in the period from 2.5-almost 3y/o. And also only with his brother. He's never given me any reason to worry with other people's babies. He can also be incredibly sweet and caring with his baby brother. Lots of factors play into it. The OPs friend is unreasonable though. You can't just let it happen, like I said if words don't work then physical intervention is key as well as possibly actively engaging the child more.

YADNBU! When my DD was a similar age, my friend and her much younger child came to stay with us. DD is quite boisterous and doesn’t have any danger awareness etc because of autism, so even though there was absolutely no malice at all in my case it was because of lack of understanding, BUT, I kept an eagle eye on my DD the entire time they was there and intervened at the slightest thing that started to happen to ensure safety of friends much younger child (the early signs of DD about to chuck something, throwing herself around a bit too close to the other child etc). Your friend sounds like a lazy parent whose child probably gets away with anything and everything with no rules, boundaries or consequences in place!

OP, you’ve done the right thing. Leave today and drop the friendship.
Our friends’ older children were only ever lovely with our DC, but if they hadn’t been, I would have done the same as you.

I'm assuming that you're 4 friends sharing a lodge. Can you take the other 2 to one side and ask for some moral support here? She should be the one sorting her child out so it doesn't come to this.........or the one leaving.

I had a friend just like this, and I'm ashamed to say that I let it go on for far too long (she was new to the area and didn't have many friends). Her DS was a monster through overuse of steroids for his eczema, poor sleep and no consequences for behaviour. We were at her house one day, and DD kept asking to go home (they were both 3) and I said in a moment...... then the little shit pushed her off the slide and she broke her collarbone

I would absolutely not accept that behaviour. My DS has never hurt anyone so it’s not all children that do this. It sounds like Sarah thinks it’s inevitable and isn’t even trying to stop it. I’ve been to a lot of toddler groups and saw a bit of rough behaviour but to be honest not much as clearly deliberate as this .

Yes some 2 and 3 years olds act like that. However it is the parents job with help from other carers to teach them not to act like that.

The parents and grandparents here aren't doing their jobs.

Unfortunately this is the end of your friendship as if he is going to nursery there is no guarantee that he will mix with younger children, unlike with a CM. So his behaviour will continue until he goes to school and isn't the youngest.

Hot, bored 3 year old who has not been adequately parented. Not his fault, not your fault. He will be a nightmare when he gets to school, poor kid.
Your only responsibility is to protect your own child. You can't do anything about the 3 year old or his useless parents.
That would be the end of the friendship for me.
You are doing the right thing by getting out of there.

And I would definitely leave too. Not only for the safety of your baby but it’s not a relaxing holiday for you when you’re constantly having to have eyes at the back of your head for another persons child - sounds like my idea of hell!

I don't think there is a need to call the child names. The issue here is the parents not doing their job and managing the situation to stop the baby getting hurt.