Friends child hurting my baby

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We are currently on holiday in a lodge. There are 4 adults and 7 kids. One of my friends, let's call her Sarah, has two boys, 7 and 3. I have a 3 month old baby.

My friends child, the 3 year old, is, in my opinion, out of control. He has constant tantrums, if you ask him to do anything, he screams and shouts. He wanted to come to the shops with me yesterday, I had no car seat for him to come so I said to him 'I'm sorry sweetheart but I don't have a car seat for you but I'll bring you back a treat'. Well, he started pulling on and swinging on my car door handle, kicking the car, screaming the place down. I genuinely thought he was going going pull the handle off and do damage. Another time my baby was in his bouncy chair and he began grabbing it and violently bouncing it up and down. His mum told him to stop but he just defiantly looked her in the eye, maintaining eye contact while bouncing it even harder. I had to run over to physically intervene.

Anyway these are just a few examples of his behaviour to give background to his behaviour in general. The situation broke down last night. Her 3 year old boy keeps throwing things at my baby. I don't know if it's jealousy or whatever but he'll pick up hairbrushes, remote controls, just anything and lob them at him. His mum weakly says 'no, don't do that' but he continues. Over and over. I'll be holding my baby and have to turn my back to protect him yet the avalanch of things being chucked at us continues. It isn't just on holiday this has happened. Well the throwing things hasn't happened before but he has threatened to kick my baby and always does sly little things like pretending to put a blanket on him to keep him warm and actually slamming it down on him, hurting him, lying on the settee beside us 'accidentally' moving his legs but actually kicking my baby....etc.

Yesterday it came to a head. I have had to continuously say to the kid, come on 'Paul' (not his real name), come on, stop that, you're going to hurt baby, you can't do that etc etc...but he doesn't care about getting in trouble. Anyway, yesterday, his mum, 'Sarah', confronted me, saying "you're always nipping at him, he's just doing it because he is hot/bored/wanting attention etc". I said yes, that's all very well, but the fact still remains that whatever the reason is behind his behaviour, he is deliberately hurting my baby and he knows what he is doing. She got extremely defensive and it came to a bit of a head. We are OK now but I'm currently packing to go home today (we aren't meant to leave till Sunday) just so that I can protect my baby from this.

I realise that kids do behave badly at times , I realise it's normal but I don't know what level is normal? Is this normal behaviour? I don't have a 3 year old myself so I don't know. Am I being unreasonable by nipping at him to stop? Am I bring unreasonable to expect him to not act like this? As I say, his mum does say 'no, don't do that' but that does absolutely nothing to control or curb his behaviour.

you missed your chance when she said "he wants attention" to look her right in the eye and say "give it then"

But i would have been on it the first time he threw something with: Don't do that again or i will throw it at you. And then told the parents to get a fucking grip.
And then I'd probably have left because while i can cope with other people's parenting, when they don't bother it gives me the rage.

No, I'm not moving lodges, I'm going back home entirely. Car is half packed up, we'll be leaving later on today. This is only our 2nd day, but I can't put up with this for another 5 days.

Of course we've only heard your version of events and we know you aren't supposed to leave a baby unsupervised so I can't work out how this is happening.

Dear OP I would love to hear again from you in 3 years time when you friend has a 6 and 10 year old (no doubt they'll be good entertainment for your toddler then)

I do sympathise with you but I can't help but think you don't understand what3 year olds are like and how frustrated their parents can feel

Soz my bad. I think I was just surprised, I don’t have a three year old either but I know this behaviour isn’t acceptable.

Are the other adults staying out of it? Are they unrelated to the children concerned? If anyone should leave, it should be her, not you, but if you have no backup, you quite rightly must keep the baby safe.

I hate this PFB nonsense used to excuse any bad behaviour in older kids.

Many of us have three year old's and don't consider this remotely normal behaviour to allow in a child. They may do these things, but they'd be firmly reprimanded by any responsible parents of three year old's.

He doesn't go to nursery at the moment, he is looked after by grandparents while she is working. He is due to start nursery in Aug/Sept. Perhaps they will be able to somehow teach him how to behave.

That sounds like very typical/normal 3 year old behaviour to me, so I don't agree that the 3 year old sounds out of control... He just sounds like a 3 year old. I guess they're all on a spectrum so some are probably more chilled than others but it doesn't sound much worse than my DS (almost 3). If my DS is kept actively occupied and has had enough sleep then he's fab, but unfortunately that's not possible all the time. I also have a 10 month old and I do have to be careful to ensure toddler DS is adequately supervised to avoid any accidents. Accidents have included pushing the baby over, hitting, stepping on, kicking and throwing things at him. You only have to take your eyes off them for 30 seconds to grab a drink for the baby to touch one of the toddler's toys and the toddler to 'over react' (ie. React like a toddler). He's getting better with time as we teach him good ways to react (take himself away from the situation, give the baby one of the baby's toys instead etc) but toddlers really don't have great impulse control.

However... your friend needs to be physically intervening and correcting it if a verbal request isn't doing the job. She definitely shouldn't be leaving it to you. These are all teaching moments for her DS that she's missing. I'm not surprised you're leaving based on what you've described as it shouldn't be 100% on you to keep the baby safe.

I do sympathise with you but I can't help but think you don't understand what3 year olds are like and how frustrated their parents can feel

so if your 3 year old repeatedly threw things at a baby you'd be the parent going "oh Max, that's not kind, is it?" while sipping your pimms*, right?

*other drinks are available

Its not normal for a 3 year old so I don't know why people are saying it is. I find that concerning.

Yes, they can be frustrating little oiks but that's while the parents need to step in and parent. Not let them assault tiny babies. My DC went through a stage of pulling the tails of cats and dogs. Until that passed, DC was never allowed near an animal without me reminding DC to be gentle and hovering to intervene and pull DC away if necessary.

Correct, I don't have a 3 year old, hence why I have said that I'm not sure if this behaviour is normal and am asking for advice from experienced parents. Also the baby isn't left unsupervised. If you read my post, you'll see that I said that he's throwing things and I'm having to turn away to protect my baby and getting hit in the back myself with objects (meaning that I holding the baby but turning him the other way to stop him from being hit when the throwing starts. Mostly though, I've been trying to keep us out of his way.

I would be more than happy to post again in 3 years time however I certainly won't be posting to say that my 3 year old is throwing numerous objects at the head of a 3 month old baby and I'm confronting the baby's mother to tell her to stop nipping at him for his behaviour.

@Curiosity101

I guess they're all on a spectrum so some are probably more chilled than others

Could you clarify what this means please?

A 3 year old can't be expected to exercise impluse control. If your baby is being hurt that is ultimately down to you who (1) knows that this little boy has a tendancy to hit out and (2) knows that the mum is not preventing him from doing so in the way that you like. I don't really understand why you went on holiday with them when you knew this, but it is ultimately your responsbility. Going home therefore sounds like a wise move if things are really as bad as you say.

I would have been much less polite than you.

My 3 year olds have behaved badly but their antisocial behaviour was never directed to kids much younger or animals. The car door thing is a normal unreasonable behaviour but mum should have immediately detached him from the door and taken him elsewhere so you could safely leave.

Yanbu to expect more from your friend eg physically moving him away from the baby. He may be jealous or insecure but he can't be allowed to physically hurt your baby. I am surprised that you are close enough to go on holidays but you say that you don't really know what 3 year olds are like. I'm guessing that you normally spend short bursts of time together which is more manageable

Well done for protecting your baby. When you're back home say to the mum and the boy you won't be visiting them with baby until her son can behave MUCH better.

The behaviour is a bit out of the ordinary, in that my 2 year old might do that, but my older DC had grown out of it by 3. However, I would expect there to be a parent ready to physically intervene at all times with a toddler and baby. There's no point just saying stop to a child that hasn't yet developed impulse control: you have to do something. This parent clearly isn't and is instead reinforcing the behaviour with a reaction alone. Pre-throwing things, however, I would think that you could physically intervene just as well as the parent and I would always be ready to do so with such a young child.

Definitely time to leave.

It’s normal for a three year old to try it on but his mum should be doing more to teach him how to behave appropriately. Mine is 3.5 and his behaviour is much better now but it took a lot of hard work managing his tantrums. In this situation with my 3yo I’d have been taking away the toys that were being thrown and removing him from the room where the baby was, not to mention apologising to you.

Regardless of how your friend choses to parent, she should not be letting him throw toys at a baby. YANBU.

I agree that it is wise to leave but it isn't on her at all! It is on the child's parents to ensure he isn't hurting others. That is the bare minimum of what a parent is responsible for, other parents shouldn't have to protect their children from them.

Even if some of you think it's normal behaviour for a 3 year old, the mothers behaviour is not acceptable. She is being lazy and needs to step up and be a parent.
YANBU for going home early. This might be the end of your friendship, she'll probably take the huff.

My three year old children would never have hurt a baby! Absolutely dreadful and I can’t believe the mother isn’t doing more to stop him. you have got every right to politely ask him to stop!!!

maybe he is jealous?

what did she say when you told her you were leaving?

A 3 year old can't be expected to exercise impluse control.

No, but a 3yo can be disciplined. I am definitely not one of the stricter parents amonst those I know, but throwing anything would have resulted in me wiping the floor with my 3yo who would have been left in no doubt that this was unacceptable behaviour. The mum should be removing him from the room with a stern 'No, you do not throw!' and a consequence every time he does it. And if it continues, she should be keeping him separate from the baby to ensure the baby's safety and so that the OP can relax.

It would be somewhat normal if it were your 3 year old doing it to your newborn.

My eldest was 2.5 when my middle was born and boy she did not like it; however she only threw something in the Moses basket once, because when her sibling cried (luckily it hadn’t hit them but it did wake them up) she was very upset at the thought she’d hurt the baby, she didn’t do it again.

It is not normal. Your friend is not parenting. She’s making excuses and attacking you instead of confronting the issue.

I’m sick of these so called Gentle Parents that think it means never saying no, never pulling them up on undesirable behaviour and never having consequences. It creates monsters.

Speaking as the ex friend of someone like this - it will only get worse.

My kid is 3 almost 4 and no, that isn´t normal. Yes they want to get their way, yes they throw tantrums and have a hand at being manipulative, flexing their new found muscles but I have never caught her deliberately trying to hurt another child like that yet, and definitely not a baby. She mostly ignores them actually, and is much more taken with older kids.
When she was about 7 months old, in nursery, she was in the communal area waiting to be picked up in a recliner, with other kids, there was this 3 year old standing above her and as I walked in he looked straight at me, caught my eye, and before I could say anything dropped a plastic horse from a height onto her face, she immediately started crying and I rushed towards her and picked her up. When the teacher asked what had happened I said what had happened, and the comment was "oh but it must have been an accident". No it bloody well wasn´t. He is probably a playground bully right now.
Some kids are like that.
Well done for leaving early, your baby is your priority.

YANBU - 3 year olds need boundaries, rules and have to be told “No”. Sounds like your friend finds it easier to confront you but ignore her out of control child!! I can’t stand parents making excuses for their naughty children which is often the result of totally ineffective and lazy parenting!!
I don’t blame you for leaving early, but it should be the other family not you.