That this transgender person..

[ClassSize2022]

Should not have been in the ladies changing room? Especially if naked from the waist down.

I can imagine being very frightened in this situation as a biological woman having to share a changing room with a man.

NHS transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802

transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802 Times article

No it wasn’t “false”. The Tribunal interviewed and cross examined everyone who was involved. It’s implicit this means everyone known to have been involved. You can’t interview and cross examine unknown people.

They're male. Males commit 98% of sexual offences. There is no evidence that their offending rates drop because of their special gender feels. In fact the evidence from prisons is that TW are incarcerated for sexual offences at a higher rate than other males.

surely the fact women say no to males in their spaces is enough for you? How many transwomen have been assaulted in male spaces? Why should women give up their spaces to males? What benefit is this to women?

Stats wise, there are more males that identify as trans in jail for murder than there are males that identify as trans that have been murdered.

So quite dangerous actually.

Yes it’s true, and why am I the only one quoting the judgement as proof and yet you lot just write a version of events down with no proof?

You are copying down the judgement and still getting it wrong! This is the second time you have got it wrong.

There was no claim by a woman that she saw a penis in the womens changing room.

Do you have any data to support the claim that suicide rates among trans people are high? The Tavistock reports one suicide among their patient group. A patient group which increasingly has co-morbid mental health issues.

Suicide rates among post transitioners have been recorded at 40% and have been for decades, a statistic which pre-dates the current debate. It would be reasonable to ask whether transition actually brings relief for people with gender dysphoria or whether their mental health suffers further when they find they feel no better having exhausted even the most extreme treatment options.

It might be convenient for you to characterise the discussion as equating trans people's existence with sex offenders because it makes you feel morally superior but if you really cared at all you would have done some research into the statistics.

How can you tell the difference between a transwoman and a sexual predator who claims to be trans? We know sexual predators will go to extraordinary lengths to gain access to vulnerable people to abuse so the argument that no sexual predator would go to the trouble of dressing in women's clothing to gain access to female spaces is nonsense; they will train for years to become social workers, members of the clergy, healthcare professionals, teachers etc so a dress, wig and make up is hardly a huge effort.

60% of TW in prison are convicted sex offenders compared to approx 15-20% of the rest of the male prison population. Do you think all those TW struggle with gender dysphoria or do you think it's possible some of them are lying? How do you think it helps people with gender dysphoria to just allow males access to women's spaces based on nothing more than their self identification?

Why did you put fear in quotation marks. 98% of sexual offences are committed by males, their gender identity does not alter offending rates. Is it quite rational for women to raise concerns about males in spaces where women may feel vulnerable because they are fully or partially undressed. If you have daughters please don't teach them that their own discomfort is less important than the feelings of male people regardless of how they identify, you will put them in danger if you do so. Women's boundaries are not hateful.

You might be surprised to hear that some people like to refer to evidence when they're forming their points of view and considering whether they are reasonable or not. Evidence is important.

Would you apply your argument to race or sexuality?

Not this time.
I said the TW was given leave of absence after the incident during the investigation…and she was on 30 July.

You said correctly the investigation was done with on 4th August, but somehow think I was referring to the compassionate leave the TW requested after the 4th of August? I mean how? You missed the 30 July absence that’s how.

At least I have the integrity to admit when I’ve missed a key detail.

@Discovereads
’. Nor did she give the impression Mrs Westwood had behaved inappropriately or pressured her to return to full-time hours or that this was the focus of the meeting. Indeed, in the evening on 4 August 2020 she asked for the rest of the week off as compassionate leave. Mrs Westwood did not immediately see the email, but Mr Swallow replied the following morning. In a response to him, the Claimant wrote that she appreciated his and Mrs Westwood’s “support and kindness”’

There we go, I can copy and paste too. The claimant did ask for compassionate leave. Which you have said was not true, and tired to prove this by disingenuously posting a different part of the judgement.

Thing is, this person isn't behaving like any woman that I know. And there is a big difference between accidentally flashing while changing and walking around with your bits out.

In female changing rooms at the gym/pool etc, I usually find that women change discretely in the communal areas. Turn their back on the room when putting on a bra, pop knickers on while sitting and quickly whip them up and so on. This person appears to have just been standing there with their penis out- and apparently then jokingly said that they'd taken their pants off because they were hot. I'd find that weird from anyone to be honest.

I work in an ambulance station, people do sometimes have to get fully changed (including underwear) or even showered after a messy call, so I'd not be surprised to find someone changing, but if I walked in to see a woman- penis or no penis- standing in full view, naked from the waist down who then told me it was because they were hot, I'd very probably be having a word with management.

Would you apply your argument to race or sexuality?

Why would you? Being male isn't the same as being gay or a different race. It's a clear biological fact, and it's clear that it's a violation of the privacy and dignity of many nearly all female people, for males to use spaces which are female only for these reasons.

What does that have to do with the likelihood of being attacked in a single sex changing room? Not sure that supports what you're trying to argue here.

Right. And what percentage of transwomen (if they have a penis) engage in that sort of behaviour?

Why is that important however, to women who'll be triggered by the presence of a male body no matter what their behaviour?

There was no claim by a woman that she saw a penis in the womens changing room.

Naked from the waist down is HR speak for had his cock out.

That aside the behaviour of the TW has been appalling throught their employment. I dont believe they ever had intentions of working full time and consistently brought up bullying claims whenever their absences or working hours was discussed. The judgement shows the incorrect claims made by the TW frankly many read as lies to me.

And now we get to the forced teaming of homosexuality.

Why is that important however, to women who'll be triggered by the presence of a male body no matter what their behaviour?

Yes, and even if they won't be triggered, women have the right to expect a level of respect for their privacy and dignity around the opposite sex.

@Conflictedunicorn

Sorry love but your wild stab in the dark just shows you haven’t read the judgement. Ah how embarrassing for you that must be! To take a side without actually bothering to acquaint yourself with the facts.

“However, after she had presented her first Tribunal claim, during the disclosure process, the Claimant was provided with a note Mrs Cook had made. Mrs Cook’s evidence to the Tribunal was that when she found out on 29 July 2020 what had happened, she realised that she had been in the ladies’ changing room at the same time as the Claimant on 28 July 2020. She had seen a number of people in there and she thought it would be helpful to the Claimant if she made a note of who had been in the vicinity at the time, so she did so. She provided the note to Mrs Westwood. The note indicated that Mrs Cook had seen four (named) people in or near the changing room. It also said that she had seen Mrs Marshall getting changed and had commented to her about the weather. As she was getting her own clothes out of her locker, she then saw the Claimant leave the changing room. When Mrs Cook’s note was provided to her during the initial disclosure process, the Claimant noted that Mrs Cook and Mrs Marshall had had a conversation in the changing room while she was in the cubicle, so she decided that they must have been the perpetrators in respect of the changing room incident. At that stage she presented her third claim, naming them as the perpetrators and as named Respondents. The only basis for identifying them was Mrs Cook’s note.”

@Discovereads Also, as someone who works in an NHS hospital - the whole hospital doesn’t use the same changing room. Most commonly (and this is from the experience of working in 8 different hospitals), different departments have their own changing room. The catering department is rarely near wards, and I would be stunned if they didn’t have their own changing area.

Again, she was not pressured. If she didn’t know who Mrs Marshall was, if she had never had an interaction with her, and if she had no idea what her voice was like, then she should NEVER have accused her of something so serious.

You are just making stuff up, and then copying and pasting something unrelated to try and give your post some relevancy, when what you paste doesn’t even support what you’re saying.

It’s weird how women saying no and standing up for their rights throws males into such a tizzy isn’t it? They get very confused when we say no.

What that males who identify as trans are dangerous?

Males who identify as trans are the safest demographic in the UK.

Males who are in prison and identify as trans, 60% of them are there for sex related crimes, as opposed to 18% for males who do not identify as trans.

So yes it does rather support that males who identify as trans are on average, quite dangerous. And women do not want them in changing rooms because they pose 3 times the risk of males who do not identify as trans.

I thought you liked stats?

Not this time.
I said the TW was given leave of absence after the incident during the investigation…and she was on 30 July.

The TW was given 1 days leave due to stating they were upset due to claiment stating they were at risk of self harm. They were not given time off while the investigation happened as you originally claimed.

So if mrs cook was so helpful to make this note, why did she not stand up for the TW, tell the other women to knock it off and then go and report to management? Surely something so serious should have been reported immediately no?