To think there should be a point at which they trust my judgement?

[UndertheCedartree]

Genuinely, asking this question. I'm a bit confused and not sure if I've really messed up. I don't want to drip feed but equally don't want an essay so I'll try to give the important information and happy to clarify if necessary.

Starting 5 years ago my 2 DC (15 & 10) have been under Children's services Child in Need. This happened as I had a mental breakdown. The case was closed about 6 months ago. Due to abuse in my childhood from my dad one of the stipulations was that they couldn't be alone with my parents. My parents live in a different country and due to Covid we've not seen them much over the past 2 years. My mum is keen to get to know her grandchildren better. We arranged that today my mum would pick up my DD from school (in her car with air con) and take her to the cinema (more air con.) I thought as the case had been closed and my mental health is much better (in terms of me being able to make a judgement) that this would be ok. But I've just found out Children's Services are opening their case again due to this. What do you think? I love my mum and want her to see her grandchildren, but maybe we should have planned for me to go along?

This is too complex for mumsnet to solve OP. Too many want details and the juicy gossip and to wag their fingers while simultaneously shaking their judgemental heads.

There is some good advice in here but also some really ignorant comments based on having no understanding of the complexity of generational abusive relationships, of which your mother may also have been a victim rather than a perpetrator or enabler. There is a degree of victim blaming in this thread and that helps no one.

In all kindness OP I’d request a meeting with social work to clarify what their continued expectations are of you as a mother no longer under their guidance and supervision. Have it explained clearly and simply and ask questions rather than making assumptions. Leave nothing to chance.

I also think you need to find a way, perhaps with a therapists support, to have the conversations you need to have with your mum about what happened and what is going to happen in the future.

It could be relevant though. I believe CSA abusers are more likely to reoffend than people who hit their kids hitting their nonresident GC, so they would be less at risk. Not zero risk obviously hence the stipulation but only OP knows the nature of the abuse so calling someone a paedophile/pro paeophilia when you don’t even know what happened is a bit unnecessary.

I have professional dealings with SW and children in CP plans.

You judgement is not sound. You have just had their case clsoed (which is the holy grail for many families) and you have chosen to expose your children to your parents.

I think you need to have a very long, objective look at your actions. Of course the SW will be concerned. To their mind it looks like you played by the system until you thought they were not watching. It is going to be very hard to convince them otherwise.

If your parents are not safe (and if your mother enabled abuse and is still with your fathe then she is NOT SAFE) then you need to be as afar away from them as possible for the good of your children.

Listen to the social workers. Listen to what you have to do. Do that.

You have essentially put yourself right back to the beginning and they will not trust you or your judgement again without a crap load of new work on your part.

Hi OP, if your dad decided to turn up at the cinema with your Mum, would your mum turn him away?

And how do you know your abuser won't decide to tag along?

Due to abuse in my childhood from my dad one of the stipulations was that they couldn't be alone with my parents.

That means either of them or both of them. So now you know. Do not leave your children alone with your parents. Ever.

This is a great question.

Are you able to get private therapy? It sounds like you really need it. It doesn’t matter if your mum didn’t “know” it was abuse, the fact is, she didn’t protect you from whatever behaviour you were being subjected to by your dad and she failed you as a parent. I have a similar story. My mum also minimised my dad’s abuse and I too wish my parents weren’t together. But I don’t foster a close relationship with my mum and I have told her outright she failed me and enabled me to be abused. I have next to no relationship with my dad (I would go completely NC but occasionally he is saying something in the background of a cursory phonecall with my mum so I can’t fully avoid him).

i really would recommend therapy if you can afford to go private - you clearly don’t have a proper grasp on the severity of the situation and that isn’t your fault, but you did make the wrong judgement call here. I would say promoting a relationship between your kids and mum is also the wrong call. Grandparents who abused/enabled abuse of their own children aren’t ones your kids need in their life.

What behaviour are you talking about that wasn't considered abusive and when was 'back then'?

I'm in my 50s and my dad used to take his belt off to me. It was just as abusive back in the 70s/80s as it is now. Even though people turned a blind eye at the time, they knew full well it was abusive. My own mother would spout the same old minimisation of how things were 'different back then' but it's bullshit. It was wrong. He knew it was wrong. She knew it was wrong. And I damn well knew it was wrong. That is why my parents have no contact with my children. I love my mum too, of course I do. But I love my children more and have protected them. You need to start doing the same.

I don't understand what the behaviour could be to not be considered abusive back then?

My parents smacked me, and however much I disagree with it and won't smack my children, it was 'normal' then - but just smacking wouldn't mean that they would be recommended not to see them by CS.

something to cause CS to say that your children should not be around them (and it is THEM not just him) is not an couple of incidents of old time discipline.

None of us need to know the what or the why, but YOU need to understand that by still being with him your mother automatically puts your child at risk - as pp said, if you dad turned up at the cinema - would you mum have turned him away? by not being there you'd have been non the wiser.

I haven't read all of the responses so this might have already been said but your saying there is no risk to being alone with your dad but enabling your mum to be alone with them in turn enables this. He might be in the hotel today but what about next time or the time after once your guard is down as the relationship seems to be going well. Or what happens if after the cinema, he meets them for dinner without you knowing whats planned.

Your minimising both your fathers behavior and your mums involvement by adding it wasn't abuse back then. This doesn't sound like your ready to make those decisions.

The case was closed though, so she thought it didn’t apply.

It depends. Your children should clearly not be alone with your father, period. They come first. If your mother knew about, but was or felt unable to prevent your father’s abuse (as many women did in those days, having very little power themselves) it’s unfair to punish her for your father’s actions. However, even if she did perpetrate abuse, she can’t necessarily be relied upon to prevent it, so can’t be the person who supervises your father and she may still be unable to prevent your father abusing your children. What’s to stop your father deciding to tag along, if she is powerless to prevent it?

On the whole, I think it’s not ok. And that your judgement probably is flawed here. The children come first. Your mother either didn’t or couldn’t prevent your abuse. Unless there’s compelling evidence to the contrary (and she’s still with him, so I’m guessing not) how would or could she protect your children?

The case was closed because Social Workers thought you would protect your children never leaving them alone with your parent or parents. You have now left your child alone with your mum so proving that you can not protect your children.

I personally would not do anything that could potentially put my DC in danger or open a SS case again

I'd be wary of your motherd intentions to be alone .... especially as your dad is close by.... he could "accidentally" bump into them somehow.

Only because it appeared to be a concern over something that might happen (rather than what actually was happening). Which it turns out it was.

If your children were 'only' in a Child In Need plan before then I assume they will be moved into a PLO situation now. (Public Law Outline).

I very strongly suggest that you get a decent family law solicitor. The LA should give you a list of law firms that practice in this area along with an initial PLO letter and it will be free and come under legal aid.

PLO is something you can't mess around with. You need to both take and follow advice.

I'm not going to beat around the bush to save your feelings. You are very likely to now be in a very serious situation. You need to really cooperate with the social workers and listen and also admit openly you were wrong to them.

I wish you thr best of luck. I also hope you get decent therapy You obviously cannot quite believe your mother was complicit in your own abuse. It's natural to be in denial. But there is much more at stake now.

They had recommended they shouldn't be alone with either parent. I think because of the concern being alone with my mum may lead to them being alone with my dad

In the context of the family minimising the whole thing this seems reasonable

As there's so much you don't feel able to discuss with your DM does she actually know about the recommendation that the kids shouldn''t be alone with her?

If so it tells us much that she too would ignore this

I found this so sad to read as it is clear to someone on the outside that you do not have clear boundaries or a good grasp of what’s ok and not ok.

You say that the abuse you’ve suffered wouldn’t have been considered abuse in the past. I don’t understand that. You know you were abused.

You’re really minimising.

UndertheCedartree
I'm a CSA survivor. I hope you listen to RuggedD, and I think you should find a counsellor that specialises in helping adult survivors of CSA.
Its common for survivors to try to maintain a relationship with one parent. Its a complex situation but we are brought up to think of them as the good parent and the bad one.
In reality they are more often the abuser and the enabler. The abuser uses the enabler. They benefit from their good reputation. This helps us to learn poor boundaries. This can be hard to come to terms with; but once we have children of our own we have to get our act together, because we have no right to put them in harms way.

It sounds a bit like you've never discussed it with your mum, OP.

I don't want to go into it too much. It was physical abuse but more than the occasional smack. I would say it was a bit of a grey area if it was 'normal' but probably many wouldn't consider it abuse. I'm not saying it wasn't abuse, though.

I don't think my mum knows, tbh. I do believe that they are safe with her. She has accepted not seeing them alone over the last 5 years and has accepted it today. She wouldn't 'just pop in and see grandpa'.

No not really, we have relationships with people we love, not abusers

We don't talk to my father at all, no one has any kind of relationship with him

My mum does not pose a risk. I was looking forward to spending some 1:1 time with my DS.