To think that toddlers don’t need screens when they’re out and about?

[anotherscroller]

From the other “things you find rude and others don’t” thread, but it’s quite a big one so I thought it could have its own thread.

Here goes:
People who give their toddlers (let’s say 18 months to age 4) tablets/phones to watch tv on in public during incredibly short interludes of time.
e.g. A train journey of less than an hour, a bus ride, while they’re ordering coffee at a café, at the bus stop. While they’re in their buggy being driven back from nursery! That one blows my mind.
If it’s a long haul flight I do it myself, but I think such young children don’t need a screen entertaining them the whole time. AIBU? They are interested in trees, ants, the contents of your bag, playing beekaboo with your sun hat, everything. Watching the world go by.
EXCEPTION: Unless they have, or their caregivers has, a health condition that requires it, makes life easier, make life worth living..

Why do I find it rude?
In the same why I find anything where people are shutting themselves off from other people in public and not being aware of others. Even with headphones on. With toddlers, as an adult with my own toddler, I feel like they and people around them are being deprived of the opportunity to “be present” together. My toddler always wants to be curious about a child on the next table, show them her teddy, or something, and nine times out of ten they can’t because said child is completely lobotomised in front of an iPad.
i think part of being a parent is creatively keeping small children occupied during a waiting time.
i think part of being a child is learning how to be ok with boredom or waiting time, and not constantly having flashy tv to watch.
AIBU?

It genuinely doesn't bother me in the slightest on the basis that its not my child so it doesn't impact me! It's the same way I view a lot of things; people can do what they like and I'll do what I like and I never expect everything to align.

My kids don't have tablet/phone of their own (1yr, 6yr) but I have used my ipad for my oldest pre-loaded with cbeebies playtime island games if we've gone out for a (extended) family meal somewhere nice where they are the only kids invited and its primarily an adult centered event. Lets be fair, a 5yo just isn't going to be into that scene for more than the first 15mins and there's only so much colouring in they will tolerate too (not to mention that the pens fall off the table constantly) so yes, the ipad does help in those cases. Likewise, we use the iPad for the oldest on train journey's for daytrips and... oh you'll hate this OP... the journey was LESS THAN 1 HOUR ... but perhaps you're forgetting how long 40-45mins actually feels for a toddler that is crammed into a commuter train with no where to run about.

As a side point, you only need to take a look at MN to see that a lot of adults are really intolerant of children making noise or moving around in cafes/trains/restaurants etc. Is it any wonder that parents are now stressed about their kids making the slightest noise out and about anymore and feel that a screen is useful! Theres always the assumption the parent has whipped out a screen because they're lazy and its to give them a break, but I think sometimes its done purely out of fear that their kids will be looked at with disdain by other adults in the venue if they dare to make any noise!

Firstly my children don’t exist to entertain your children.

When my son was four I was tutted at on the tube as he was playing on my phone, tutter was performance parenting. My son had been on a four hour bus journey, 14 hour flight and a huge time zone change to contend with. He hadn’t slept, I hadn’t slept. He was knackered and on the brink of a tantrum due to being tired. I’m sure tutter would have preferred him to cry for twenty minutes.

Because it's hard work helping them entertained without tablets.

We've never given our 3 year old a tablet so far but for a good year and a half, long car journeys were really difficult trying to keep him entertained, and that's with both me and DH there. He's much better now that he can chat properly and understands more but it really put us off going anywhere too far for a while.

So I don't have an issue with parents choosing to do something that'll make their lives easier as long as they keep the volume down or use headphones.

Absolutely love this response, couldn't agree more ❤️

I agree OP. I find it laughable when people comment 'my child doesn't want to talk to your child about a teddy' as if it's ok that their child ignores someone trying to make a social connection at the age of 3 in favour of a device and completely misses the point of what issues this will bring for them in the future. Children imo need to be aware of what is going on around them, be interacting with people to make them into rounded human beings capable of empathy, judging how to read social cues and generally engage with people and not only when they want something.

@ILikeHotWaterBottles you can't always tell a child has additional needs! From seeing my child in a trolley playing on a tablet any outsider could think he was nT.. so the best thing anyone can do is not judge because you don't know.

Totally agree with OP. Lazy parenting. Just talk to your kids, or let them doze or look around at the world. I can’t stand seeing it. Actually find it heartbreaking.

You’re right, we’re not helping our children grow and develop by plunking them in front of screens constantly and before age 5 is especially harmful. Hence why so many children now have no peripheral vision.

I agree OP. I find it laughable when people comment 'my child doesn't want to talk to your child about a teddy' as if it's ok that their child ignores someone trying to make a social connection at the age of 3 in favour of a device and completely misses the point of what issues this will bring for them in the future.

It's not in favour of a device though. Even if my child wasn't using a device, and was sitting happily at the table, I don it want a random 3 year old approaching is when we are out for a meal. That's not an appropriate social connection and if OP was that's concerned about her child development she would understand that.

So you don't agree with OP then? Because OP didn't want to let her child do those things, OP wanted her child to be able to approach others.

My LO is too young for this to be an issue for us yet, but I have read a lot of the academic literature around this at work so I'll through in some food for thought:

-The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that children younger than 18mo avoid screen media use other than video-calling and that any screen time at 18–24 mo should involve the supported co-viewing of high-quality programming (Council on Communications & Media, 2016).

-The World Health Organization (2019) recommends no screen time for one-year-olds and under, and a maximum of one hour at two years of age.

These recommendations are based on studies that have found negative impacts on infants and toddlers a few examples (though many others available):

High degree of daily screen time is associated with:

• later externalising and aggressive behaviour (Chonchaiya et al., 2015),
• hyperactivity and inattention (Cheng et al., 2010),
• reduced socio-emotional skills (Chonchaiya et al., 2015; Verlinden et al., 2012),

-poorer emotional self-regulation, i.e. more likely to have outbursts, tantrums etc (Courage, 2017), -poorer language development (Tomopoulos et al., 2010), -lowered ability to inhibit behaviour (McHarg et al., 2020) -increased childhood obesity (Centre for Disease Control, 2018) -reduced duration of night time sleep (Ribner & McHarg, 2019).

TLDR:
A lot of screen time is pretty bad for kids under 3, mostly because it reduces parent-child interaction, and reduces the child's engagement with others and exploration of the world around them. This doesn't include video calls to family etc. Some screen time is fine, in moderation, and is best with parent involvement/co-watching (think interaction not distraction).

What we never know when we see a kid with a screen is whether this is the first time they've had a screen in front of them all week because it's needed right there and then for whatever reason or whether it's how they spend their time regularly, so we can't judge. Think of all the times you've been at one of your worst moments and if someone evaluated just on that.

I read OP's post as being about a regrettable social change rather than judging any specific parent's parenting. We all have days when being able to give a child a screen for 5 minutes is a godsend and I don't think anyone is objecting to that.

It's more about a change in social norms- it's now completely normal to stick a screen in front of a child in any situation where they might be even slightly bored, rather than try to engage them or just let them be bored- and that comes with a lot of downsides.

However, I would want to see research into the impact of ongoing exposure to screens - it has to impact on their verbal/social skills.

DN is quite advanced speaking for his age - but he did get interactions on top of screens and put into stimulating environments as soon as possible.

My kids are teens now but I do remember going to a toddler group at children centre and a Mum their interacting loads with my younger but highly verbal child - started playing with her son she told me not to bother as he couldn't talk he made gestures and sounds and interacted - saw her other weeks - she had no screens but still manged not to interact with her DS - and he was in a special group centre put on for speech development.

I'd agree screens might not be helping with interactions and research is always a good idea - but the problem isn't just going to be screens.

My children don't have devices in public and they still don't want to talk to your child about their teddy in a coffee shop - HTH

"I agree OP. I find it laughable when people comment 'my child doesn't want to talk to your child about a teddy' as if it's ok that their child ignores someone trying to make a social connection."

You wouldn't have found it funny when my child hit or bit yours because they wouldn't leave him alone.

Everyone saying "I understand if the child has additional needs, but..."

How do you know whether the child has additional needs? They don't generally come with a neon flashing sign above their heads.

I have an autistic 3 year old, diagnosed at 2, obvious from 18m. No doubt I'm one of those parents that you judge. He also looks much older than he is, he is taller than his 6 and 7 year old cousins. He doesn't have a neon flashing sign saying "autistic, sensory processing disorder and likely ADHD". He looks "normal".

For us, whipping the tablet out in a coffee shop means that we get to hurriedly eat some lunch whilst he has something to focus his attention on for a short amount of time, rather than wanting to get down and pace around, or getting distressed because its loud, or losing his shit because someone spoke at him. No doubt my poor parenting would be judged then too.

Parenting an autistic child is exhausting (and I consider my child to be pretty easy in the grand scheme of things). Parenting any child is exhausting at times. That snapshot that you see of a child on a tablet or phone might be the only chance that parent has to breathe all day.

OTOH, I totally judge parents on phones ignoring their children 😡

I agree with you OP. You’ll get lots of criticism on here for suggesting it (there was a similar thread quite recently that got very heated) but almost everyone I know who works in early years education or child psychology/mental health would agree that excessive screen use among young children is affecting their cognitive and social development, often in ways that we are yet to fully appreciate.

We recently looked at primary schools for DD and were warned about screen use and the accompanying increase in speech and language issues at every school tour we attended. Screens have their place - we used an iPad for DD recently on a flight to Europe - but SEND issues aside they should never become the immediate go-to option.

so the child is to have no choice and to be forced to interract whether they want to or not?

If we went out to eat when my dd was a toddler, we would do exactly that and let her watch something on our phone for the amount of time it took us to eat. I couldn't care less if you think that makes me the worst parent in the world. Why shouldn't I be able to eat in peace for 5 or 10 minutes without being judged?

Tbh I was so shocked the other week on the bus a baby in a pram the mother put cartoons on her phone and had it clipped to the pram for the baby what happened to talking to your baby playing with them baby was between 9 and 12 month 😳 my on ds now 10 didn't watch much TV and only got a tablet last year its crazy

Fgs it’s not about you, every single person has explained that. Stop looking for offence when none is intended.

The only time I’d actively want my toddler to interact with other children is somewhere like a park etc. In a restaurant or coffee shop I don’t. I don’t judge parents who, in those places, give their kid their phone for 10 minutes of peace and quiet. If you want your child to build their social skills with other children then take them to a playgroup.

I agree with you, it's so sad to see. I think the adults have forgotten how to interact with anyone because of their own phones so they're just forwarding on the zombie tuned out behaviour.

@Underhisi so are you saying that because your child bites or hits you use devices rather than them learning how to not bite or hit?? or is this because all the children on Mumsnet seem to have some sort of disorder which then means they are outside social norms?

Fgs it’s not about you, every single person has explained that. Stop looking for offence when none is intended.

It is about us though. OP is happily judging away and has NO IDEA why a child is using an iPad. That's makes it about us.