To think that toddlers don’t need screens when they’re out and about?

[anotherscroller]

From the other “things you find rude and others don’t” thread, but it’s quite a big one so I thought it could have its own thread.

Here goes:
People who give their toddlers (let’s say 18 months to age 4) tablets/phones to watch tv on in public during incredibly short interludes of time.
e.g. A train journey of less than an hour, a bus ride, while they’re ordering coffee at a café, at the bus stop. While they’re in their buggy being driven back from nursery! That one blows my mind.
If it’s a long haul flight I do it myself, but I think such young children don’t need a screen entertaining them the whole time. AIBU? They are interested in trees, ants, the contents of your bag, playing beekaboo with your sun hat, everything. Watching the world go by.
EXCEPTION: Unless they have, or their caregivers has, a health condition that requires it, makes life easier, make life worth living..

Why do I find it rude?
In the same why I find anything where people are shutting themselves off from other people in public and not being aware of others. Even with headphones on. With toddlers, as an adult with my own toddler, I feel like they and people around them are being deprived of the opportunity to “be present” together. My toddler always wants to be curious about a child on the next table, show them her teddy, or something, and nine times out of ten they can’t because said child is completely lobotomised in front of an iPad.
i think part of being a parent is creatively keeping small children occupied during a waiting time.
i think part of being a child is learning how to be ok with boredom or waiting time, and not constantly having flashy tv to watch.
AIBU?

Which only really works if you think kids and humans have changed so much in the past 10 years or so it's a necessary thing.

I wish there were more studies into the increased use of screens and less social interaction and the increase in children with MH difficulties in the same period. I'd be so interested to see if there's any correlation and causation.

@Prinnny I think you are reaching here. Nowhere have I suggested I would ‘push’ my child on anyone, let alone you and your children, or any child watching a screen in public. I prefer to encourage my child to learn to read social cues.

I think posters like @Hdhabvdhhebsb have articulated very well what I was trying to say about the implications and effects of this as a growing social norm.

I can think of reasons for screens for toddlers on any of your examples:

train ride - some toddlers do not sit still. At all. Much safer to keep them distracted than having them toddling all over the train or you forcifully restraining them. Same for bus stop/ ride, same for coffee shop (where the parent has potentially been running around after said non-stop toddler all day and just wants 15 minutes sat down to drink a coffee)

buggy ride home from nusery - to prevent a danger nap that will ruin the whole evening

Don't be so judgemental - you are seeing a snapshot of a whole day you otherwise know nothing about.

@UnimpeachableBravery @godmum56 Reading doesn’t have the same dopamine effect on the brain though so is less addictive.

It’s interesting people associate screen time with calming down, personally I think it’s generally numbing out and doesn’t actually help us regulate our emotions. Generally studies seem to show overuse of apps, games, social media etc isn’t good for our mental health or cognitive development.

As a trend I totally agree with you. The ability to concentrate has been falling sharply in children and screens are the reason. Being able to focus and concentrate is essential.

@Icanstillrecallourlastsummer That is not a good reason to give a toddler a screen in a buggy. There are other ways to engage children.

But the same could be said about you not teaching your child to read social cues. My eldest was one of these very outgoing, confident, friendly toddlers who wanted to be friends with everyone, I didn't tolerate her badgering other children who didn't want to be spoken too though. I taught her that sometimes people don't want to play and that's ok. Obviously biting and hitting are not good behaviours and need to be corrected, but pestering someone who doesn't want to interact is also a bad behaviour that needs to be corrected.

My youngest DD doesn't have a tablet - she still doesn't want to interact with everyone, I don't always want to talk and interact with people so why should I expect her too.

This thread is so funny I give my two year old his tablet in his pram when we're shopping or long bus rides and I get dirty judgemental looks but when he's screaming and kicking off because he's fed up I also get these same looks as parents we can't win we are judged and shamed what ever we do

Yes. When able to maintain eye contact, and physically engage.
When walking behind them pushing the buggy, an exhausted child will nap no matter how much “look at that”, wheels on the bus singing, books, activities or whatever. SOMETIMES a snack will do it, but that can be hit or miss. And walking home, it’s harder to do the “DONT GO TO SLEEP LALALALALALALALALALA!” That we frequently resorted to in the car having done the singing, the engaging, the activities and the snacks.
By 18 months with one of my kids, and 20 months with the other, all naps were dropped and a 5 minute doze on the way home would mean rather than sleeping at 7pm, they would be bouncing off the walls at 10pm. And then you have an even more exhausted child the next day, but the nap STILL screws up the night sleeping and it’s a very hard cycle to get out of.
Some kids just don’t nap anyway. And a 5pm nap makes life impossible!

I think you're wrong to call it rude. It isn't rude. There's an argument to be had on whether it's lazy or not, but it isn't rude.

The thing is, there's also a strong societal pressure to keep young children from being a nuisance. Parents are between a rock and a hard place there, because it's often the only way they can keep their children quiet and still. Lots of people would equally judge them if their child was wriggling about, talking to strangers and pulling on sun hats etc.

Personally as far as judgment goes I actually think it's worse when it's older children doing it. They should be able to sit still without causing a big nuisance. It's harder with toddlers.

Mmmmhhhhh. I could have written this post myself pre-children.
Now, as a mother of a 3 year old I learned not to judge as much.
My son does not have any additional needs, however he is one of a kind! Many of the nice activities mentioned in this thread never really worked for him when he was younger.
While now we can sit at a restaurant/cafe' and have a chat, watch the surrounding, play with a toy, colour a book this was not possible a year ago! He would just run off, possibly looking for the most dangerous thing he could do (run on the street, climb every possible surface, touch any objects he could see,...). All my friends raised an eyebrow when I described the situations, but then when they had the opportunity to spend time with us...they all agreed my little one had different energy level than their children! At nursery he was well known to be constantly on the go and a real character.

He would often refuse to sit on the pushchair even for short trips, He learned how to get out of his car seat. No toys, talking, playing would work, and -oh boy- we tried. He was just very active, curious and not willing to listen. We had a very TERRIBLE terrible two time!

I was ashamed of giving him my phone when out and about, but it was a last resort to avoid him literally hurting himself (and yes, we limited the times we went out, we made sure he was rested, gave him full attention....still he was a mad child!).

So, just, no I don't judge anymore....

Sorry- that was in response to @antelopevalley about tablets in buggies on the way home from nursery

My opinion is that it’s easy to judge from a snippet of a person’s life.

I'm slightly older than this but we had cassette tapes(!) to listen to in the car (on a portable player with batteries as there wasn't an in-car one!) and we played games involving counting red cars type stuff. And those i-spy books (still available - I've got the car journey and train journey ones for DD!).

We didn't really go out for meals until we were older but had little colouring books or a reading book to look at, or were expected to talk with the adults there. But there weren't child-friendly restaurants then really (I remember the excitement when one that had a Lego table opened!). There wasn't a going for a coffee culture so we just didn't do it.

I disagree. I probably would have agreed prior to when I had my own toddler.

Each child is different and I think different things work for each child and only the child's parents can judge that. I don't see a big deal with 5 mins screen time in a pram vs a screaming toddler who hates being cooped up in the pram or having to carry them whilst pushing a pram the whole way home.

@antelopevalley Who are you to say whether it's a good reason or not? You don't know the child.
I used to sometimes give my daughter a screen on a nursery drive home (10 minutes). She was sometimes super tired after nursery. and the car was like a sleeping pill for her, and no amount of chatting, singing, calling her name etc stopped her. If she did fall asleep even for those 10 mins it meant her normal 7:30 bedtime would turn into 830-9 and she'd wake up tired, and the cycle continued.

I am really curious what harmyou think an occassion episode of peppa pig on a drive home to avoid the above causes. Or what benefit you think she was missing out on as a result of havign that screen rather than sitting in a rearfacing car seat in the dark.

I agree with you OP. Early years are precious and communication is such an important skill to be learned. It works both ways too. I took my dgc to a soft play a couple of weeks ago and I was shocked at the number of Mums who sat their child down, went away and sat on their phones. Not looking at child or interacting with them. One tot fell over and cried and no one went to him. I looked around but everyone else was glued to their phone. I had to say quite loudly, this little boy is crying, is his Mum here? before eventually a Mum came to him. She had been sitting quite a way from him and obviously not watching him.

"do you think parents who do give their children screens don’t do any of those things?!"

You'll be surprised by the amount of people who have minimal interaction with their dcs. Families are all constantly on screens.
I don't think people are fully aware how serious this issue is in so many homes.

I don’t know, maybe you’re right, but I tend to think that our society expects children to be kept under control and expects to not have to interact with them or accommodate them in anyway. For that reason I think it’s a two way street, if we want to allow children be curious, bored, engaged with the world then we need to also accept things will go slower, be noisier, and occasionally favour the needs of children over adults. Otherwise, best not to judge I think, when you see more child friendly societies in action it’s easy to see why people resort to short term pacification in the UK I think.

I wouldn't normally give a screen when out, but I have a child who is interested in everything and know there have been a few times over the years. A train journey might be short for you, but might be a connection in a much longer journey for the family where 500 rounds of ISpy have already gone on. A cafe might look like a bad time, but mum may really need to have a quick work call, answer emails, set up appointments or just have downtime from a whole morning of questions about how the world works. A friend's child has autism and it can prevent him having a meltdown. A child might be sad at nursery and it was a treat promised in the morning if they get dressed and go in without protesting. Mum might be desperate for adult chat with a friend and wants the child distracted.

Before judging it's always worth remembering that you see a stranger with their child for minutes, but they are living a whole life with that child for years that you haven't seen. You literally have no idea what their life is like from a snapshot where the child has a screen. I judge too sometimes if the child isn't even asking when they are seemingly mindlessly passed a screen, but I do at least try not to.

Exactly. Kids must not have screens to keep them occupied/ still, but they must also be seen and not heard, sit perfectly still, behave impecably, regardless of the situation.

Do the parents who give their kids tablets/phones find success having boundaries with it? i.e. there’s a lot of talk on this thread of using it for a quick five minutes or during an exceptionally stressful time. Do children understand those sorts of boundaries?

My sisters kids are teenagers now so were toddlers at a time where this was all a relatively new concept; she gave them screens for things like meals out/car journeys but both of them demanded screens all the time eventually. I have plenty of friends who give their children tablets a lot but not sure there’s a nice way to ask that.

The world is 3D. Confining toddlers to a 2D world is damaging. The effects will be felt later in their school years.

Society is set up araound screens now. I'm sure they would be asking regardless of their experience with screens as children. As PP pointed ou above, many adults are like this and didn't have the same access to screens as children.

I think you're right, but you can never judge any single situation without knowing the full story. But, on the whole, I think screens are being used far too much.. but that's also because there are so many pressures on people these days. Women, for example, are now expected to work AND take care of the kids and house, whereas in years gone by the man would have earned enough money to keep the family going.