to wonder if BAME people care more than others about women’s rights?

[ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus]

Do BAME people care more about women’s rights?

Today I read about attorney general Suella Braverman opposing the SNP’s plan to
speed up gender self-ID. By allowing anyone to claim to be the other sex, self-ID would of course give every man (trans or not, sex predator or not) access to all women’s services and spaces.

Yesterday, it was the equalities minister Kemi Badenoch stating that all new public
buildings must have single-sex toilets.

Health secretary Sajid Javid has told the NHS to stop replacing words that have a female meaning (such as ‘woman’) with expressions such as ‘person with a uterus’. The NHS and many large organisations have been doing this to avoid offending trans people. But it is baffling to many people, who then risk missing vital health information.

Dame Kelly Holmes supports the Fair Play for Women campaign to stop males competing in women’s sports, despite transactivists’ aggression.

And so many heroic resisters have been fighting legal battles: Allison Bailey, Keira
Bell, Raquel Rosario Sanchez, Shahrar Ali …

And it’s not only the fight to keep women’s single-sex rights. Sajid Javid has also
refused to shut up about grooming gangs, despite being (unfairly) accused of racism.

Those are just the few I can think of on the spur of the moment. I know there are
many more.

Of course there are many other, non-BAME feminists and allies fighting against the
withdrawal of women’s rights and protections. But the percentage who are BAME seems very noticeable.

Any ideas why?

And another name to add to the roll of honour! Baroness (Kishwer) Falkner of Margravine, who came here from Pakistan in the 1970s and now chairs the Equality and Human Rights Commission. She spoke up for (another heroine) Maya Forstater, who lost her job over feminist tweets and today won her employment tribunal appeal.

As Wikipedia says: Falkner and the EHRC under her leadership have come under criticism from trans and LGBTQ+ organisations following comments she made in May 2021 to The Times, in which [Falkner] said that women had the right to question transgender identity without fear of abuse, stigmatisation or loss of employment.

Big cheer to Maya as well today 👏

I think it's hard to generalise. As other posters have said, WOC may have more experience of oppression, being othered and living as a minority.

But on the other hand, black culture definitely objectifies women more. When I see loads of black women twerking in music videoes it definitely doesn't strike me as something that fights misogyny and objectification.

@TruthHertz Right, so Miley Cirus, Madonna and Lady Gaga just off the top of my head were singing with just mic in hand covered by a duvet-style dress? That's nice.

There is definitely something to be said about the objectification of Black women and men but a bit of critical thought would arrive to a different conclusion than it being 'black culture'. Do you think it's black people for example who used the black female body to dissect to experiment on for their research? Do you think it's all those black mothers who sexualised their sons so that white women would actively pursue them for the alleged sexual prowess? Do you think it's a group of black pervs who convinced white men that their cuckhold fantasies should feature black men? Do you think it's all those black school teachers who told black girls they had 'attitude' or were 'sassy'?

Well, I struggle to think of any mainstream genre as mysogynistic as rap music. If it's not 'black culture' then what are the MOBO's all about?

I'm not knocking BAME people but it's relevant to the OP.

No, I don't think it's a good thing that other people can't say the same things and get the same response. Especially tenured faculty. I think it absolutely drives social division racial distrust.

I do think it is good that they do speak out since others can't. I know some people feel a real responsibility because they see what the situation is.

Black people don't have one opinion any more than any other group. Trevor Noah does not agree with, say, Larry Elder, or Trevor Phillips, and they aren't going to want the same person to speak on their behalf.

I'd say that Islam doesn't really have a great track record around women's rights, either.

I am doing some historical research at the moment and it is really hitting home that the people who are seen as the movers and shAkers are the ones who get onboard with the medias agenda.

I also think there is incredible revisionism going on regarding some issues - the Protestant Church (I’m not a member) historically did much for its young people in terms of sharing resources, etc and the RC Church has always focused on human rights, civil rights, grassroots movements - later, alongside plenty of humanist/ secular movements.

What has happened to our collective voice in this country?

Why is no one recognising the foundations on which much of these movements and discourse are based on?

Feminism is not new, racism is not new, poverty, etc they have always been debated, challenged, considered in society with plenty of good people who dedicate their lives to finding solutions, cures and new ways of doing things.

This, to me, is like someone who has never been involved in social justice, waking up and seeing the media representation and current political as definitive and original - it’s neither.

We have adopted the medias criteria as our own personal lens and it is not good.

to wonder if BAME people care more than others about women’s rights?

Theres not really any evidence for this stereotype esp as “others” refers to white people. In fact it’s an example of positive racism imho. Similar to saying “to wonder if BAME people value education more than others (white people)”

You can be Hispanic and white. Hispanic simply means descended from those in the Spanish colonies- so colonists, slaves, native Americans. So Hispanics consist of white people, black people, Asian people and Native American people.

I think though beastly here is talking about something quite different. There certainly are for example Hispanic whites who are quite racist, and you can see that in the history of many Hispanic countries.

Then there are people like Enrique Terrio, who was leader of the Proud Boys, and was Hispanic - Cuban - and most certainly not white. And what many people don't realize is that the way people think about race in different communities doesn't always correspond to mainstream American or UK definitions.

But what beastly is saying, I think, is that people who are black or "brown" whatever that means, but especially black people, are expected to have a certain set of political opinions, and if they go outside of those - say they are Republicans, they don't believe the id politics talking points, they are called some pretty horrible things.

Joe Biden saying that anyone who didn't vote for him isn't really black is a good example. People find that shocking but a lot of black conservatives will say they get far more overt mistreatment for being conservative than they ever did for being black.

There's a really interesting movie about black conservatives in the US that is on Youtube pretty recently - it's a few years old - called Uncle Tom. Well worth watching even if just to understand why the Democrats are increasingly losing voting groups they have relied on in the past - Hispanics in particular but increasingly black Americans.

that is a fair and excellent question - and yet it repeatedly is...

Why would the race card be used against women’s issues?

If I had a penny for every time a black woman told me about the way in which a white woman used her perceived feminity and whiteness as a force of violence I think black women as a whole could retire and have enough money to get even Jeff Bezos to decide to go back to work.

One of the things I like most about being on Mumsnet is because it allows me access to a mindset which as a Black woman completely confounded me. But I can safely say racism is here to stay either way, indeed it's even thriving.

If I had a penny for every time a black woman told me about the way in which a white woman used her perceived feminity and whiteness as a force of violence

How are femininity and whiteness used as violence? Could you give a couple of examples?

Because we know what it feels like to be treated less than.

Right wing women only care about rights that reflect their skin colour, even though women's rights affect EVERY woman. If you are racist, you aren't gonna give a shit about black womens' rights, are you?!

“the way in which a white woman used her perceived feminity and whiteness as a force of violence”

”Do you think it's black people for example who used the black female body to dissect to experiment on for their research? Do you think it's all those black mothers who sexualised their sons so that white women would actively pursue them for the alleged sexual prowess? Do you think it's a group of black pervs who convinced white men that their cuckhold fantasies should feature black men?”

This is very weird, and racist, along with your earlier post about not being a feminist because (picture of white women).

@Palmfrond You haven't done the research to argue with me. I've been involved in anti-racism work most of my life. I'm actually even of mixed heritage thus have white relatives. One thing I will tell you is that reverse racism doesn't exist. It's not a thing - it's akin to saying vegans have 4 elbows, in other words, bizarre and nonsensical. Class play a huge factor especially in the UK versus the US where the issue is a lot more polarised. The picture I posted wasn't just a group of random white women. You don't know the history.
The second post of mine you've pasted was in response to a poster who profoundly declared that objectivity of black women (black people) was based in 'black culture'. That same poster then went on to subsequently make more comments containing non-sequiturs like 'sO wHaT'Z tHe MoBo'Z aBoUt Th£n'.

One thing I will tell you is that reverse racism doesn't exist.

That's true. It's always just racism, whether it's from black people directed at Asians, white people directed at black people, Asians directed at white people, or any combination of the above. It's just racism, and it's vile.

@beastlyslumber I have some time for you today. I've just seen this. You must have thought how progressive you sound telling me that Black people are "human beings" and not 'otherwordly creatures' to be stared at when I told my story of gazing at the black female news-reader. Do you know why? Because representation matters. There's a reason why little Black girls cry about their hair and their dark skin. It's because the image of beauty does not include them. Me seeing a Black journalist as a kid was mind-bending because it's so rare as to be unicorn like. Digesting this information as child means you see that careers like that aren't for you because you see them as something for other people who are 'better than you'. Even as close as January this year I got one of my black friends who is a barrister to give a talk to black students about her career - even in 2022 some of these girls just couldn't imagine taking that path. Not because they aren't intelligent enough or don't have the stones for it - but because they just don't see themselves represented there. You have no idea just how much children infer from the world around them. Some of my nephews who are football addicts said to me that it's crazy how if a white footballer misses a penalty he just gets called 'a shit footballer' but if a black one does then it's bananas at dawn and 'go back to Africa'.
It's very clear to me that you have absolutely no idea. None whatsoever.

Yes, I agree representation matters. It's important to have role models.

Can I make a point about black female representation, or lack of it, as a beauty standard. About 25 years ago I used to work as a photographer in London doing 'make-over' style shoots with the public. The staff, photographers, makeup and sales, was a mixed bunch race wise, as was the customers. Black women, above all others, came in proud of how they looked, and spent the most money on photographs. White women tended to be the most embarrassed, some even apologised and tried to make jokes about how ugly they were. They spent the least.

I've always been a radio 4 listener and around this time I heard a programme about anorexia and other body hating issues. Apparently, it was young white women who suffered the most from these conditions and black women who suffered the least. One respected theory put by the experts on the programme was the representation of white models as the beauty standard. It was thought that young black girls just couldn't relate to this, they were to far removed and so at some point growing up they abandoned this template of beauty and instead looked to the real women they knew in their lives and styled themselves on their big sisters or aunts instead. These real women were not six foot tall skinny supermodels, and didn't need to be.

Young white women were surrounded by an image of beauty that was close enough that it could be them but they could never actually compare to. I know black women often lament lack of representation in fashion modelling but most of us ordinary women would never look anything like a model anyway so why even look there, better to look at the real women around you as a measure of beautiful.

I remember the programme so well because it so resonated with my experience at work. And I've just looked up the numbers to see if white girls still have higher rates of anorexia, they do.

@Kendodd

I think there may be two different issues there, though - and neither recognise that the beauty standard is a white woman that looks like Gisele/Kate/Claudia - ie very slim, blonde, tall, long straight hair.

I remember reading an interview that stated that there had been a tiny amount of black women on womens mags like Cosmo/MC, etc and the reasoning was that the magazines didn’t sell with a black woman on the cover - at the height of Naomi Campbell’s reign on the catwalk how was that seen as acceptable?

I think a few different issues.
Perhaps being bombarded with images of beautiful women is just plain unhealthy for young girls, whatever their race.
Lack of representation in all industries and given the world we live in, even the beauty industry, for black women.
If true that womens magazines sell less when a black women is on the cover, well that's just a commercial decision by the companies involved.

I think representation can be thought about somewhat differently nowadays, in a world where people represent versions of themselves on social media and we don't depend on film/TV for images of ourselves or others. I think it's more interesting and salient to think about how images are produced and mediated, and how they generate meaning. There's a great book by Thomas de Zengotitta which discusses this idea. Also 'Amusing Ourselves to Death' by Neil Postman.

Well, sorry you didn't like my points but you only have to listen to the constant reference to 'bitches' and 'ho's' in rap music to ascertain that there's a distinct lack of respect for women there. And the disproportionately high number of black guys who abandon their wife and kids doesn't really help paint a picture of respect.

Things like female circumcision, forced
/child marriage, honour killings, etc, are also particularly prevalent in the wider BAME community. I mean have you seen the level of harassment women get in India? It's shocking.

So, no, I don't think BAME people 'care more than others about women’s rights'. Maybe in the few privileged societies where they're a minority but not overall. In fact, I'd say that the further we get from western influence the closer we get to barbaric practices.