to wonder if BAME people care more than others about women’s rights?

[ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus]

Do BAME people care more about women’s rights?

Today I read about attorney general Suella Braverman opposing the SNP’s plan to
speed up gender self-ID. By allowing anyone to claim to be the other sex, self-ID would of course give every man (trans or not, sex predator or not) access to all women’s services and spaces.

Yesterday, it was the equalities minister Kemi Badenoch stating that all new public
buildings must have single-sex toilets.

Health secretary Sajid Javid has told the NHS to stop replacing words that have a female meaning (such as ‘woman’) with expressions such as ‘person with a uterus’. The NHS and many large organisations have been doing this to avoid offending trans people. But it is baffling to many people, who then risk missing vital health information.

Dame Kelly Holmes supports the Fair Play for Women campaign to stop males competing in women’s sports, despite transactivists’ aggression.

And so many heroic resisters have been fighting legal battles: Allison Bailey, Keira
Bell, Raquel Rosario Sanchez, Shahrar Ali …

And it’s not only the fight to keep women’s single-sex rights. Sajid Javid has also
refused to shut up about grooming gangs, despite being (unfairly) accused of racism.

Those are just the few I can think of on the spur of the moment. I know there are
many more.

Of course there are many other, non-BAME feminists and allies fighting against the
withdrawal of women’s rights and protections. But the percentage who are BAME seems very noticeable.

Any ideas why?

But in spite of all that, owning slaves in Britain in 2022 would be regarded as frankly outrageous. Not so much in India though it would seem.

To go back to the OP, I think slavery alone could be used as an argument as to why BAME people don't care more about women's rights. Especially given that over 70% of current slaves are female.

Europe did it centuries ago and stopped it. Many other countries did it back then too and now do it even more.

But the point is we abolished slavery. We made people equal under the law. That's good, isn't it? I'm keen on the idea of supporting countries that suffered under British colonialism where we can, but also let's acknowledge that not everything the British empire did was evil. As empires go, it was better than most, in fact. I think it's too simplistic to blame colonialism for problems in India, for example. It is one factor among many.

And yes, totally agree that we had all these same issues in history. That's why it's so amazing that we have all this equality now.

The question isn't "can previously oppressed societies be forgiven for their treatment of women?"

We're talking about societies in their current state in 2022. As of today, BAME societies treat women worse in aggregate. There may be reasons but nonetheless they still treat women worse. Most people are too scared/polite to say it but only a naive person would think that people don't know what actually happens in places like India and China.

I genuinely find it bizarre that so many think the reason the British abolished slavery is because they somehow woke up one morning and had a moral reckoning. I suppose it would be the natural conclusion of being taught in school the concept of 'the sun never set on the British empire'. And it being something to behold. I remember one afternoon coming home from school and casually talking with my father as I always did about my day and what we were learning at school and telling him how we watched the film Roots and we learnt about how Britain was at the forefront of ending the transatlantic slave trade. My white father who happens to know a lot about history actually told me to sit down so he could explain. He was aghast. My mother looked at me like I had 3 heads.

Racism between various minorities is actually very insidious. This is a direct product of white colonialism. In many cultures your beauty hinges on your proximity to whiteness. So how light your skin is and if you have blue/green eyes. But that's an entirely separate discussion on white people feeling aggrieved because they and their historical actions and the subsequent lasting legacy are under scrutiny in modern discourse.

To give an example, I'm not a fan of affirmative action. But the way some white people spoke about it you'd think it was armageddon.

Britain takes African slaves, violently subdues them and takes control of them: build me all this stuff yeah unravels long list and give me all your shiny in the ground stuff. In exchange I'll let you live in my shed and tell you what to do. I'll teach you how to be good like me.

Africa many years later: you took all my in the ground stuff and it was worth a lot of money it turns out, we've got none left, the shed stinks and I'm fed up of you bullying me, I want out.

Britain: okay fine. I'll leave you the shed and my Bible and my mate nestle will help you out a bit.

Africa: struggles

Britain: what are you doing? I left you the shed and everything. Why haven't you made any money?

Africa: you fucked up the soil, we can't grow anything and you took all the gold we could have traded with.

Britain: Why are your babies dying. You should look after them better.

Africa: yeah about that, your mate nestle said-

Britain: and can you try to keep the aids to yourself.

Africa: your Bible said-

Britain: I know we thought condoms were bad before but that's so not the fashion now.

Africa: when did it go out of fashion? What?

Britain: how do you not know, it's all over the news. Haven't you even got education set up yet?

Africa: we're trying but there's this guy-

Britain:That guy you elected-

Africa: we didn't elect him 😑

Britain: you should be like me, look how well I'm doing.

Africa: we are dying, can you get rid of that bloke and help get the soil back.

Britain: Yeah, I would help but remember you said you didn't want to be in my shed anymore and that hurt my feelings. And that ground is proper fucked, I wouldn't know where to begin. Besides I've fucked up my air now and there's this whole climate change thing I've got to try and suppress. Just try and do what I did, you know 🤷‍♀️

Africa: has slaves

Britain: woah! Wtf you doing that's cheating now, you're not allowed to use slaves anymore remember. It's 2022 for crying out loud. Where'd you learn a thing like that? Bloody barbaric that is.

Pretty much copy paste for the countries Britain has fucked up.

Well, I suppose that analogy might work if we were talking about two individuals whose lifespans spanned several centuries.

In reality, what we have is people who were never slaves berating people who were never slave owners. We live in an entirely different society and none of the people you expect to pay reparations even knew the people who created the so called 'debt'.

Many of the properties, land, and assets have changed hands and are in the possession of people who paid for them with their own hard earned money and probably aren't keen on giving them away for free to a stranger who never owned them and likely never would have, as assets change hands over the years anyway.

Like violence statistics it will never be truly resolved which is why it's such a great topic for those who love to berate others. End of the day, we're in 2022 and the vast majority of slaves are owned by BAME societies, who largely escape criticism from the western world. There must be at least some cognitive dissonance between expounding the horrors of historic slavery whilst simultaneously justifying current slavery at a much greater level in your own society.

I'd rather see any reparations money going toward fighting current slavery, not lining the pockets of people who live in relative comfort by global standards.

Yeah, or maybe I see history and its consequences as a continuum and not in neat separate sections. If I leave the tap running, the bath overflows and water damages the house, I can't just turn off the tap and everything go back to normal. I've set in motion a chain of events, even if I then die and my house is inherited those new owners still have a damaged house. Consequences of actions don't cease when the people that enacted them do.

I don't see berating. I don't know why you would take colonialist history so personally. I assumed that you must not know that the consequences of destroying countries is that those countries become shit to live in. But you do know that, you just feel it's berating when people mention it after you call the majority of the world barbaric.

I don't take it personally at all. I'm just not afraid to call a spade a spade. Most people seem to have this bizarre belief that it's racist to criticise the behaviour of any minority individual or group, which is exactly what we saw in the whole Rotherham scandal.

India is not some backwards country that doesn't know better. Hundreds of years have gone by since the transatlantic slave trade and things would be better all round if we held them to the same standards we do the West.

I just don't understand why societies/communities that lived through the horrors of slavery aren't more interested in preventing it happening again. Many seem more interested in getting a slice of the empire pie.

They are but they haven't got a pot to piss in, how do you not understand this? They can't rebuild a stable country with nothing all the while being exploited further by the west. The Dhaka factory collapse was in 2013. The Bhopal gas tragedy was in 1984 and it's believed that those exposed to the chemicals were more vulnerable to covid as most covid deaths in India were people that had survived the tragedy. You know covid, the thing that happened in 2020. Not to mention how hard it was for them to buy oxygen and vaccines because Britain left them potless and pays them almost nothing for the work they do for Britain now.

It isn't all done and dusted just because 'slavery' has ended. The West still has slaves in India and all over the world, they get away with it on the technicality that they're paid a wage of pence a day.

@beastlyslumber

If I had a penny for every time a black woman told me about the way in which a white woman used her perceived feminity and whiteness as a force of violence

How are femininity and whiteness used as violence? Could you give a couple of examples?

I'll give you a couple taking you at face value that you're genuine, but don't know why I'm bothering as experience tells me that it'll get dismissed as not real examples or something stupid like that.
Amy Cooper Central park woman the other year.
The woman in the tragic Emmet Till case (her name escapes me, sorry)
That's just two.
I'm white but am capable of doing my own searches and learning, I don't see why people who are black should have to educate us.

I think it's fair to say that western culture has done better than most others so far in bringing about fairness, justice and equality for women and minorities.
Fucking hell.
Maybe we should just get back to colonising everywhere, eh?!
Imparting our superiority over others?!
WTF did I just read, it's getting said more and more out loud on here, it's not just insidious or insinuating anymore!!

So you are saying the reason other countries have less emphasis on things like women's rights, or still have slavery, or do't value baby girls, is because they were colonized by the west? And presumably if they hadn't had that happen, they also would have rejected those kinds of things?

While I would never argue colonization doesn't have effects I think that's quite an ahistorical claim.

I wouldn't really say BAME societies. I think that's too general and as a term it only has meaning within a western context. And it doesn't even have much meaning even in the west.

There are always bad people everywhere who are happy to exploit others.

But not all countries stopped slavery because they had an ethical commitment to it. Some only did so because they were forced. In others there may have been political pressure but many people didn't change their viewpoint.

Slavery has been almost ubiquitous in all human history, it's clearly not difficult for people to see it as natural. And it's not like generally it was controversial. In many ways it's more difficult to explain why some places don't have it.

@georgarina
For your info women are NOT a minority group. They're actually a majority group.

Yes, I understand that. I more meant in the West. Even on here I've read a fair few opinions from posters saying they want reparations for what happened to their ancestors. Why are they more worried about that than stopping modern slavery?

I generally don't mean to be facetious. It's just that I find it hard to agree that African Americans need reparations more than current slaves need emancipated. Not that both can't be achieved, but there is much talk of the former and seemingly deafening silence on the latter.

@TwentyOneTwentyTwo
I wonder, do you not feel ashamed benefitting so much on the misery of others. Did you give your vaccine up to someone in India, or do you relinquish any of your wealth to help those over there. Likely not. Its easy to critisise those for the unfortunate events of others while still benefiting from the priveliges you enjoy on a day to day basis

There's a really big leap from what I said to what you said! And no logical way to connect the two sets of statements. If you disagree with what I said, that's fine, you're free to put your point of view. But making up statements I haven't said and then denouncing them is a form of logical fallacy called 'strawmanning'. It doesn't win arguments - it makes you look like you don't have any. I'm sure that's not the case.

What wealth would you like me to give? What benefit do you think I get from the misery of others? Are you saying that colonialism and the misery of others is okay if I haven't personally sent vaccines to India? Who do you think I'm criticising?

How are femininity and whiteness used as violence? Could you give a couple of examples?

Amy Cooper Central park woman the other year.
The woman in the tragic Emmet Till case (her name escapes me, sorry)

Okay thanks, I understand where you're coming from.

(Just to note, the Emmet Till case happened in Missisippi in 1955 - a very different context from the UK in 2022 in terms of race relations.)

I won't go into details on specific cases, because it's a bit of a derail (and also all the ones I can think of are in the US) but I think it's correct to say that the white women who called the police on black people in these recent high profile cases were thoroughly lambasted and cancelled. This suggests to me that 'whiteness' and 'femininity' are not the ace cards that they're being presented as? If anything, these cases engendered a meme of 'Karen' which is used to stereotype white women as stupid racists with bad haircuts.

Just to note, the Emmet Till case happened in Missisippi in 1955 - a very different context from the UK in 2022 in terms of race relations.)
I know it did, but you asked for examples so I gave you some.
Really don't like the argument I always see on here that goes something like "but that happened in America, not the UK."
So what? It happening anywhere is awful, it's not a competition and doesn't mean we might be any better just because "well look at what America did"

the white women who called the police on black people in these recent high profile cases were thoroughly lambasted and cancelled.
You (presumably) missed the huge thread on Amy Cooper here a while back with posters (one FWR regular in particular) but several more posters falling over themselves to paint her as a poor innocent victim and the black man as the aggressor.
It was sickening.

But we're a totally different country. We have a totally different history in terms of race relations. We have totally different institutions, structures, systems and cultures. The US has different problems with regard to race.

If you say that British white women use 'femininity and whiteness to force violence' then give me an example that relates to Britain. Or is it something that applies only to the US?