Page 30 | Should a male teacher have done this?

mycatisannoying · 2022-07-01T22:48:43+00:00

During a residential school trip, enter a girls' shared dorm to wake them up? To my mind it's a safeguarding issue, and there was also a female teacher on the trip who could have done it. I wanted to seek others' opinions before raising it. Thanks.

Maireas · 03/07/2022 20:45

TruthHertz · 03/07/2022 20:09

Also, with around 40% of sex traffickers being female, we do need to at least be aware of the possibility of women grooming young girls.

Exactly, that's why women are not excused or exempt

Ging7878 · 03/07/2022 20:45

You need to be thankful you don't have any real shit problems in your life. Wow. Just wow.

TruthHertz · 03/07/2022 20:47

Strangeways19 · 03/07/2022 20:11

@TruthHertz I don't know about stats like this, it's true also that women are more likely to telling someone that they've been assaulted whereas men might not?

Similarly Muslim prisoners - if there's a lot of suspicion around certain cultures or race it's not hard to imagine that that group will be targeted more & more likely to be charged & found responsible, another group might not.

The obvious flaw in stats like this (apart from who is writing them) is whether people (such as assault victims of any gender will 1. Tell someone that they've been targeted or not 2. Willingness of a society to find a person 'guilty' & 3. Whether someone identifies (ie as Muslim, or as part of a gang etc) at the time of the crime or whether for example, prison has converted them.

I have always wondered whether assault is really gendered - I'm aware that many people won't agree with this perspective, or whether women are more likely to come forward. I am aware that other groups have higher violent offences (such as the trans community), particularly in America. But again who really knows? It really does depend on whether any person belonging to any group comes forward or not, or reports it in the first place.

From what I've read, I think that the number of male victims is a fair bit higher than documented (studies showing men less likely to report etc, and all the social experiments which show that people take VAW much more seriously), but I do also believe testosterone is a big factor and that in aggregate men are a fair bit more violent.

I often feel like there's a resistance to the testosterone theory on here, and the cynical side of me wonders whether it's because its much harder to criticise men and say "oh, they hate us so much" when the cause is innate biology. But either way there are reams of studies showing that increase testosterone makes both men, women, and other mammals more violent, territorial, and sexually aggressive.

Oceanus · 03/07/2022 20:52

This thread has gone downhill. People making up quotes and others hell-bent on forcing others to accept it's normal for a male adult to go into a room full of females (though only 1 girl would have been one too many) who happen to be minors (and will be for a while!) and were presumably wearing pyjamas (I believe that's a logical assumption)! I wonder if it's all one person posting with different usernames, I find it hard to believe so many peculiar people could all show up on the same thread. Unless there's a club for pervs and they've been told to make their way here and advocate for their perviness!

wellhelloitsme · 03/07/2022 20:54

wellhelloitsme · 03/07/2022 20:18

@TruthHertz

But my point is that you could never ever get away with advising caution against Muslims in any situation in the same way you can with men. I mean, I even feel a bit icky talking about it and that is undoubtedly the social conditioning that one shall not criticise minority groups.

People definitely advise caution against men in ways they don't other groups. I actually don't think it's unreasonable but it is inconsistent.

There are many, many initiatives to proactively stop young Muslim people specifically from being groomed and radicalised in communities with a large Muslim population, so I would argue it's not something nobody talks about.

It's also a question of scale. Almost every single person in the UK or America for example has known or witnessed at least one man who at has at some point sexually harassed or sexually assaulted a female. And men make up 50% of the population.

If almost every single person in the same countries knew at least one Muslim who had been involved in terrorism against one other specific race and they made up 50% of the population and the other race in question made up the other 50% of that population, I believe that the same level of caution would be applied.

That's why it's IMO not a fair comparison at all. The scale of the population involved and the frequency involved are both too different.

Please note I'm not being combative, this is me answering your question in good faith as you said nobody has done so previously.

I come in peace and hope that all made sense.

Would genuinely be interested in your thoughts on my take on this @TruthHertz as I know you said people don't usually answer your question on this subject so I wanted to make sure I took the time to do so.

TruthHertz · 03/07/2022 20:55

wellhelloitsme · 03/07/2022 20:18

@TruthHertz

But my point is that you could never ever get away with advising caution against Muslims in any situation in the same way you can with men. I mean, I even feel a bit icky talking about it and that is undoubtedly the social conditioning that one shall not criticise minority groups.

People definitely advise caution against men in ways they don't other groups. I actually don't think it's unreasonable but it is inconsistent.

There are many, many initiatives to proactively stop young Muslim people specifically from being groomed and radicalised in communities with a large Muslim population, so I would argue it's not something nobody talks about.

It's also a question of scale. Almost every single person in the UK or America for example has known or witnessed at least one man who at has at some point sexually harassed or sexually assaulted a female. And men make up 50% of the population.

If almost every single person in the same countries knew at least one Muslim who had been involved in terrorism against one other specific race and they made up 50% of the population and the other race in question made up the other 50% of that population, I believe that the same level of caution would be applied.

That's why it's IMO not a fair comparison at all. The scale of the population involved and the frequency involved are both too different.

Please note I'm not being combative, this is me answering your question in good faith as you said nobody has done so previously.

I come in peace and hope that all made sense.

That's a fair observation. The overall scale in absolute numbers is much less in regard to terrorism perpetrators. Although of course such attacks tend to affect a much higher number of individuals in one particular instance.

But, yes, male violence is more likely to have been experienced by the average woman. Although, of course the average woman will also likely have met a much greater number of good men due to the overall number of men and the fact that they're more likely to have social interactions with men in general than members of other cultures I'd have imagined.

TheChosenTwo · 03/07/2022 20:57

Having just been on a weeks residential with 63 children, I’m dreading going to work tomorrow to find all the complaints parents will have undoubtedly made 😫
we work ridiculously hard in the lead up to these trips, there are rigorous risk assessments drawn up to help safeguard children but we act in loco parentis in the absence of their guardians and do what we think is the best by them at all times. We then work all throughout the trip, literally not one break, to ensure they all have an amazing time and make fabulous memories with their friends and challenge themselves at things they’ve never tried before. They go through a whirlwind of emotions and us as staff are there to help guide them through it all.
There is literally no thanks when we bring them home and hand them back over to their parents. Obviously there is no extra pay for being on duty an additional 100 hours a week. We are exhausted but we know we’ve given those children our best. And there are always always lots of complaints.
It’s soul destroying.

wellhelloitsme · 03/07/2022 20:59

@TruthHertz

But, yes, male violence is more likely to have been experienced by the average woman.

And not just violence should be considered here IMO. Also uninvited sexual comments and harassment for example. I don't think I know many women who as either girls or adults haven't ever been genuinely frightened or felt at risk by a male stranger's behaviour, even if violence wasn't involved in the end.

Watapalava · 03/07/2022 20:59

Op your response is more scary than his behaviour

dd has been on several school residential and been woken by male teachers calling out
You’re being ridiculous

LAtalante · 03/07/2022 21:00

I wonder if it's all one person posting with different usernames, I find it hard to believe so many peculiar people could all show up on the same thread

I don't think it's one poster, although I think there is multiple usernames stuff at play.

I'd rather it be one person, but I think more worryingly, there's some organised activity going on. It tends to be threads like this one that draws their fire - very pro-male, no matter what, and lots of stuff about women being abusers and so on. Anti-women, basically.

I hope MN are keeping an eye.

Smileyaxolotl1 · 03/07/2022 21:01

TheChosenTwo

unless the male members of your team went into the girls rooms to wake them in the morning your post is entirely irrelevant.

BigFatLiar · 03/07/2022 21:02

TheChosenTwo · 03/07/2022 20:57

Having just been on a weeks residential with 63 children, I’m dreading going to work tomorrow to find all the complaints parents will have undoubtedly made 😫
we work ridiculously hard in the lead up to these trips, there are rigorous risk assessments drawn up to help safeguard children but we act in loco parentis in the absence of their guardians and do what we think is the best by them at all times. We then work all throughout the trip, literally not one break, to ensure they all have an amazing time and make fabulous memories with their friends and challenge themselves at things they’ve never tried before. They go through a whirlwind of emotions and us as staff are there to help guide them through it all.
There is literally no thanks when we bring them home and hand them back over to their parents. Obviously there is no extra pay for being on duty an additional 100 hours a week. We are exhausted but we know we’ve given those children our best. And there are always always lots of complaints.
It’s soul destroying.

I don't understand why teachers do it..

LAtalante · 03/07/2022 21:02

dd has been on several school residential and been woken by male teachers calling out

You seem to have not read the thread. This is a male walking into a dorm full of sleeping girls.

'Calling out' is completely different.

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/07/2022 21:04

Whatwouldscullydo · 02/07/2022 12:02

how did you know she was a lesbian? Unless she lived in the area and was known to all the locals and was openly gay to the area it's inappropriate you'd know this

Sexuality is irrelevant anyway. Abuse harassment and assault is not about sexuality it's about power. It would be inappropriate for a gay male to enter a female dorm as much as its inappropriate for straight man. LesbiNs are no more a danger around girls amd women as every other woman or girl. Lesbians do not assault at the same rate as men.

Exactly.

A gay man would make girls feel just as uncomfortable as a straight man would - and it would also be an abuse of power.

And accurate comment re: lesbian teachers, too 0 women do not offend at anything like the rate of me. I had a lesbian GP - I didn't feel remotely uncomfortable with her when I was undressed. She was just another woman, and all I was to her was just another patient.

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/07/2022 21:06

ilovesushi · 02/07/2022 12:05

Their dorm should be their private space. It seems inappropriate and unnecessary. Why did he have to come in? Surely a knock at the door and a "time to get up" is enough. I caught part of a programme on radio 4 yesterday about a male teacher sexually abusing girls on a school camping trip. It was chilling. He was able to get away with it partly because things that would scream inappropriate to me, were deemed appropriate.

Which programme was this, please?

Watapalava · 03/07/2022 21:06

Walking into the room too isn’t a big deal

its not like he walked into a single girls room

there were multiple kids there

it really wouldn’t bother me but then I don’t presume all men are pervs and even if they were they’d have no opportunity in a rooms full of kids

Paranoia at its best. I think you’re all a bit sick tbh

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 03/07/2022 21:08

When I worked on cruise ships NONE of the crew were allowed to be anywhere alone with a guest including in a lift, in one of the small shops, in the toilets etc. This was to protect US from being accused of anything. Obviously it protected guests too but the amount of guests who would try and make accusations or try and 'get with' crew was awful. Heck, even Disney characters in Disneyland have to have both hands visible at all times!

Tbh, similar rules should be in place in schools. Do whatever you can to not be in a position where you could be accused of anything like this. I think you find those that flout those sorts of rules are the ones who probably are a bit dodgy.

I don't think it's fair to think this guy is dodgy and complain, but then again, the DD said it made her uncomfortable so OP has to deal with it!

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/07/2022 21:13

Workawayxx · 02/07/2022 12:52

and yet many females I hear saying this have no bother walking around a public pool or beach in a bikini or topless in beaches.

This is to do with consent and choice. I choose wear a short skirt and accept men may see my legs. It doesn't mean I want men (or anyone!) to look through my bedroom window and see me in my pyjamas.

OP, YANBU - I don't think this is OK at all. I went to a boarding school and there's no way any man would have been allowed anywhere near the girls dorms. I can't even remember any Dad's bringing bags in after a weekend/holiday or anything - in fact, I don't think any of the Dads would have needed this stating to them it's so obvious! I think I'd have a word with the school. He may not have seen anything this time (although did make your DD and possibly other girls feel uncomfortable which is reason enough to mention) but next time there could have been a girl up early getting dressed or something.

Just out of interest, why did he think your DD had her phone - sounds so strange that he was so convinced and wouldn't let it drop. I also think getting students to use code words against your DD is inappropriate.

Consent, choice and context.

Topless on beach = maybe ok

Topless in church = probably not

5128gap · 03/07/2022 21:14

BrimFullOfAsher · 03/07/2022 20:11

You made a bet with yourself yet still didn't answer it...

What if professions were changed, what about a male nurse say. Would it be inappropriate for him to do night time observations or medications?

Well, let me think....
I have on occasion been naked in front of a male nurse. But in all honesty, I don't think id stip off in front of a male teacher.
Me and my double standards!

Stressedmummy94 · 03/07/2022 21:15

LAtalante · 03/07/2022 21:00

I wonder if it's all one person posting with different usernames, I find it hard to believe so many peculiar people could all show up on the same thread

I don't think it's one poster, although I think there is multiple usernames stuff at play.

I'd rather it be one person, but I think more worryingly, there's some organised activity going on. It tends to be threads like this one that draws their fire - very pro-male, no matter what, and lots of stuff about women being abusers and so on. Anti-women, basically.

I hope MN are keeping an eye.

I don’t think anyone is being pro male; I think the point is that they want clarification from the OP on the whole situation. And I think the adding of the phone bit was completely irrelevant and unnecessary as it has nothing to do with the situation.
The OP has stated that the teacher entered the room. But did they give warning before hand? did they ask permission beforehand? Things like this is what ultimately would clarify to people whether they feel like it is acceptable or not in their own minds.
I think the problem is that in todays society a lot of things stigmatise males. Domestic violence. Being a pervert. Being child abusers. Rapists.
and the problem is that the OP has insinuated that there was a possibility of a more perverse reason for him entering the room as it was a dormitory of all girls when there was a female teacher also on the residency trip.
all in all it boils down to all of the surroundings factors that the OP has not answered. Yet they have been willing to argue with the comments about the possibility their daughter maybe disgruntled over the phone situation.

LAtalante · 03/07/2022 21:16

it really wouldn’t bother me but then I don’t presume all men are pervs and even if they were they’d have no opportunity in a rooms full of kids

No one else thinks that all men are pervs either. So that was pointless.

Paranoia at its best. I think you’re all a bit sick tbh

Yep, course you do. What else have you got?

Oceanus · 03/07/2022 21:16

TheChosenTwo · 03/07/2022 20:57

Having just been on a weeks residential with 63 children, I’m dreading going to work tomorrow to find all the complaints parents will have undoubtedly made 😫
we work ridiculously hard in the lead up to these trips, there are rigorous risk assessments drawn up to help safeguard children but we act in loco parentis in the absence of their guardians and do what we think is the best by them at all times. We then work all throughout the trip, literally not one break, to ensure they all have an amazing time and make fabulous memories with their friends and challenge themselves at things they’ve never tried before. They go through a whirlwind of emotions and us as staff are there to help guide them through it all.
There is literally no thanks when we bring them home and hand them back over to their parents. Obviously there is no extra pay for being on duty an additional 100 hours a week. We are exhausted but we know we’ve given those children our best. And there are always always lots of complaints.
It’s soul destroying.

Does your school allow lone male staff members to wake up young girls by walking into their room alone?

whiteswanlake · 03/07/2022 21:20

mycatisannoying · 01/07/2022 23:53

A male teacher in a room of sleeping 13 year old girls. It doesn't sit right with me.

I’m quoting the OP because so many people cannot read.

He was in the room.

The girls could not give consent for him to be in the room because they were asleep.

5128gap · 03/07/2022 21:21

LAtalante · 03/07/2022 21:00

I wonder if it's all one person posting with different usernames, I find it hard to believe so many peculiar people could all show up on the same thread

I don't think it's one poster, although I think there is multiple usernames stuff at play.

I'd rather it be one person, but I think more worryingly, there's some organised activity going on. It tends to be threads like this one that draws their fire - very pro-male, no matter what, and lots of stuff about women being abusers and so on. Anti-women, basically.

I hope MN are keeping an eye.

Absolutely this. There has been a slow creep over recent weeks of threads being used as vehicles for certain agendas. You can pretty much guarantee they will be all over any thread with male or man in the title. At first it was just tedious, but the intensity and anti woman sentiment seems to be increasing.

Stressedmummy94 · 03/07/2022 21:21

Oceanus · 03/07/2022 21:16

Does your school allow lone male staff members to wake up young girls by walking into their room alone?

Show quote history

The OP said that the teacher entered the room. Yet they haven’t clarified if they entered uninvited or without warning.
another student may have opened the door and allowed the teacher to enter the room. Yet the daughter just doesn’t agree with the fact. Or maybe just maybe the daughter is saying that they feel uncomfortable to get the teacher in trouble for nothing other then the fact she’s pissed about the phone situation.
not like people haven’t made false accusations about stuff in the past because they’re pissed at someone.