Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

Because it should not ever be considered bigoted to state that biological sex is real and important.

Mate, if she gets a pay out it will be compensation for her lost earnings.

The toll this has taken on her has been huge.

Do teachers lose their jobs for saying Santa isn't real?

I'll stand at a funeral at the weekend and when they say about someone going to heaven il say "no she isn't, thats an ideology and heavens not real". that will be OK, wont it?

Well you're not going to lose your job over it, no.

No, but people would think I was a right arsehole.
So why does Maya get away and is practically cheered?

But if you made those comments about heaven and were dismissed from your employment as a result...it wouldn't be fair, would it? You're entitled to your own beliefs.
(Your dismissal would probably have happened once, but we've moved on from when the Church wielded such power thankfully).
If it had happened and if you sued as a result and if you won, people would cheer for you too.

It really seems like the zealots are in charge again these days. We're told what to think. And it all started out with the best of intentions, for the main part, but it's gone too far and it's causing harm. Things need to change to be as fair as possible to everyone.

You really do know nothing about this case. The organisation that she worked for was one who encouraged and fostered wide ranging political discussion.

It is a think tank. It is supposed to foster alternative viewpoints.

That was what made this specific case so stark. Because this organisation allowed freedom of thought and expression yet not about the view that people cannot change sex. And that males should not be in female prisons, or in female single sex spaces such as refuges.

The facts of the case is there for everyone to read.

You dismissal of it, without having any understanding of it, completely undermines your arguments.

You just can't imagine someone phoning an employer and saying your employee said God does not exist and there is no heaven at my relative's funeral. I can't imagine you'd get more than a sorry for your troubles. The fact is that the TRA are menacing and threaten commercial harm - we need keep doing the very thing they would like us to not do - we need to keep talking about this issue, we need to debate it and keep debating it again and again, we need to not stop, so every man and woman is fully aware of what is going on. There is a reason why the TRA do not want this discussed - it does not stand up to scrutiny.

I've known trans people since the late 80s.

They knew they were not the 'sex' they wanted to be and we knew it and if a mishap happened, there were no tantrums and wailing and sackings. Why must we behave as if trans people are toddlers that need to be pandered to as if they are all delicate vases that raised voices might crack? If they truly do not know what sex they are then how can they be trans in the first place?

This is why teaching kids they can change sex is so dangerous.

It is so insulting to trans people's intelligence to pretend things that are not true. And it puts people in danger. As we've seen with the predators who use it to their advantage.

I think for me the difference is, that as a female who worked in construction, I've had all sorts said to me over the years and so I'd expect grown men to be able to cope when people know they are not women. But apparently not.

No.

It would be sexist discrimination to expect a female to lift weights that are too heavy for their body which would cause them injury (either immediately or later through repetition). Weights that a male body can easily lift with no ramifications.

The fact that some people believe that females are ‘equal’ and that means they should lift equal weights in their employment is an issue of using the word ‘equality’ in this way.

Females should not be ‘not considered’ for a role where lifting is involved. Just as a person with an injury or a disability should not be ‘not considered’.

Instead accommodations can be made for most roles such as having a weight limit set for females that is different to males. So they can do the role just with more lifts when lifts is needed.

It is NOT sexist to say females have different bodies and limits than males where it matters.

And ‘where it matters’ is key here.

I really think it would be worth your while putting aside your prejudice here and reading the judgement.

Maya is not advocating standing at a person’s funeral declaring someone’s belief is an ‘ideology’ and someone is not going to heaven.

She is saying that where appropriate, and a think tank where people discussed wide ranging beliefs and opinions is appropriate, people should be able to express their views that people cannot change sex, and that females have need of single sex spaces for their safety and their dignity. And that males should not be competing in female sports categories.

The comparison between a funeral and her think tank work environment is a false comparison.

One is a specific event and the other is an where general opinions, not targeted at specific people should be explored.

Not only are you denying women the opportunity to be trans (because we're only shouting about the transwomen, despite the fact transmen have caused little to no harm and they are the majority of the transitioners) you're denying them their rights based on the fact that they're a woman, and basing it on the men.

Could you please link up the evidence to your claim that the majority of transitioners are female.

Because I think you have taken a demographic from the under 18 transitioners over the past year and applied it generally. Or maybe you have seen statistics that we have not seen.

I don’t believe that there are any statistics available for even how many ‘trans’ people there are in the world. And are you forgetting trans people include non-binary people?

Maybe you are using ‘transition’ to specifically mean medically transition which would be incorrect.

Either way, I am keen to see the evidence that the majority of transitioners are female.

Instead accommodations can be made for most roles such as having a weight limit set for females that is different to males. So they can do the role just with more lifts when lifts is needed.

An example. When I started working on construction sites I was told I couldn't do x and y. Because things were too heavy. My solution, I ordered smaller bags. So our soil samples could simply be put into smaller bags, same overall weight [15-20kg rather than 30-40kg], and absolutely no barrier to the job. Which was to go out and take soil samples from construction sites.

Upshot, many of the younger men, many of who were still late teens/early 20s, thanked me as they hated the whole 'Carry heavy bags for the job' thing as well. As they were getting backaches from carrying very heavy bags around.

Solution for carrying concrete cubes, rather than lift 3 or 4 at a time, lift 1 or 2 and put a sack barrow on each van. Result, even women could go out collecting cubes.

It doesn't take much working out in the overall scheme of things.

Yes alison.

The same with military pack carrying, banks and coin bags, landscaping, store stacking and deliveries, warehouse work. A whole raft of work roles.

All because accommodations based on biological facts.

‘Equality’ doesn’t mean equal everything. The dropping off of the word ‘opportunity’ has had consequences in creating this false perception. Females should have equal opportunity, and be treated ‘equally’ wherever possible.

The distinction is very important.

Females are not like super heroes with equal strength to males . No female is a match for the very strongest male and it is foolish to believe that the average male is not stronger and a has huge number of other bodily differences that deliver advantages over average females.

No.

Well, yes.

Not directly.

Her article about a win for women etc etc and everyone applauding her - what that actually is doing is hurting transpeople. I really don't understand why people can't see that.

A relative in my family is an 'old generation' man who grew up in a country where homosexuality is still pretty much illegal.

He really struggles to understand that a man can be attracted to a man. Genuinely.

Would you say he was homophobic or bigoted?

Struggling to rake up sympathy. She didn't look very "toll beaten" in her smug article today.

People lose their jobs for various reasons all the time, yet she is being celebrated when it is due to her making her own choices.

Well, I work in secondary, so that would be strange, but I wouldn't say it to primary school kids who I work with in summer, cause I'm not a twat.

No, but I'd be pulled up for saying i was an atheist or that I vote for Nicola Sturgeon. That's directly against my terms of service/registration.

But comparing Santa to transgender is AGAIN, transphobic!

I don't want to know anything about it. She's an egotistical idiot, and I have even less time for her supporters crowing on social media.

The vast majority of trans do not transition - its something like 5 percent.

I am absolutely going for my under 18 (because these are the people I work with at the moment.) I have never, in 8 years of service, met a single MTF pupil.

I did use transitioner incorrectly there - I wasn't really sure what other word to use, if you see what I mean.

I can only go on anecdotal - I've said clearly and openly before that my bias (and it is bias) is based on the pupils I see in front of me. I talk about my trans friend, who is also FTM.

I've never met a real life MTF. I don't think many of us have, they're very rare. Other than those on twitter, and those mythical ones that hide in bathrooms, or that one the other day about the missing "woman" - MTF is sensationalist headlines and for me, that takes away from real people.

"People lose their jobs for various reasons all the time, yet she is being celebrated when it is due to her making her own choices."

She lost her job because she was discriminated against. Employers are not allowed to do that. Her employer broke the law and have now been held to account for that.

I'll give you that I can be biased, but I'm not prejudiced.

No, she isnt advocating doing that, because that would be a prick thing to do, yet by your logic, they're both ideologies.

You are also comparing false narrative - I agree with you about sex spaces and sports.

What I do not agree is that loudly claiming "people cannot change sex" and considering yourself clever is OK. it isn't.

I have a question, @beautyisthefaceisee.

Do you respect my right to identify myself as an adult human of the female biological sex, who has no gender identity and as such does not share either a sex or an identity with trans women?

If so, what is the word for that?

You don’t want to read it?

You don’t want to have an informed discussion then, but you do seem to want to demonise people who do know what they are talking about and disagree with you.

It is fine to have your opinion, but it is hypocritical to be demonising others for discussing their opinion because you won’t read up and become informed of the facts of the case.

Discriminated against for what? Her bigoted views?

Do me a favour.

If she was a man, nobody would be in the slight bit interested. She was called a hero earlier.

My pupils who have to live through what they do and still show up every day while grown adults mock them on the internet - they're heroes.

And btw, none of them is under the assumption they can "change sex", and it is frankly embarrassing on Maya's part that she's some kind of world leader for saying that.

Well, given my latest professional training, you're a ciswoman (and if you were a man you'd be a cisman).

In my head, you're a woman.

sorry - and yes. Of course I do.