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Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

916 replies

landantan · 30/06/2022 15:37

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

OP posts:
babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:17

If she was a man, nobody would be in the slight bit interested.

If she were a man, she wouldn't have lost her job for believing in biological sex.

Helleofabore · 06/07/2022 21:17

You can try to convince us that you aren’t prejudiced, but you just told us you won’t read the facts and you have been denigrating and dismissing others who have read and followed the case closely.

If that is not a prejudiced view, then maybe the word ‘prejudice’ has a new meaning too.

babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:18

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:16

sorry - and yes. Of course I do.

Great, thank you.

So what word can I use for that?

What word means, exclusively, adult humans of the female sex, and is in no circumstances used by male people to describe their gender identity?

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:18

Helleofabore · 06/07/2022 21:15

You don’t want to read it?

You don’t want to have an informed discussion then, but you do seem to want to demonise people who do know what they are talking about and disagree with you.

It is fine to have your opinion, but it is hypocritical to be demonising others for discussing their opinion because you won’t read up and become informed of the facts of the case.

There are no facts.

There's opinions.

I'm not an idiot, I know what she said and what she did.

I still think what I think about her. That's allowed.

Nobody's remotely interested in my opinions when I work with trans teenagers every day and see their faces and hear their words and can't possibly understand why I won't support a woman and her squad celebrating being utterly hurtful, so you'll excuse me if I'm not remotely interested in her nonsense.

babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:20

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:18

There are no facts.

There's opinions.

I'm not an idiot, I know what she said and what she did.

I still think what I think about her. That's allowed.

Nobody's remotely interested in my opinions when I work with trans teenagers every day and see their faces and hear their words and can't possibly understand why I won't support a woman and her squad celebrating being utterly hurtful, so you'll excuse me if I'm not remotely interested in her nonsense.

How can you know what she said if you aren't interested in reading the judgment?

tigger1001 · 06/07/2022 21:22

Yet the tribunal agreed she has been discriminated against.

She is entitled to celebrate that victory. She lost her job illegally. She should celebrate holding her previous employers to account. Hopefully it means that employers will think twice about discrimination in the future. That's a good thing for everyone.

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:23

babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:18

Great, thank you.

So what word can I use for that?

What word means, exclusively, adult humans of the female sex, and is in no circumstances used by male people to describe their gender identity?

But there's the thing, and I'm sorry for this as I know you won't agree.

I don't believe you can have your own exclusive "word".

Last year, as per the same policy, I was told that care experienced/looked after (which I was) is now an additional support need.

an additional support need, i ask you.

So I'm now in one big bubble with every other additional support need. I can't tell you how angry I felt. And I'm on dodgy ground anyway, because I'm my parents' daughter. I'm my brothers sister. but if we start playing this truth over feelings game, I'm not.,

I stand with you on spaces. I stand with you on sports. I stand with you on prisons, on rape sessions, on counsellors, on health care professionals. As does my FTM friend as I've said many times, as would my pupils. They have no interest in taking your rights away from you.

They are real people, not the nutters on twitter.

The terrorists, because thats what they are, on twitter, couldnt give two shits about Maya's words. not two shits. But my friend, and my pupils will, when they read articles about her crowing.

If my friend, or one of my pupils, wants to change their name and call themselves a woman (or a man in the case of my friend) I have no issue with that. I really don't. And just because some idiots online threaten your rights, they don't, so why are they copping for it?

They genuinely feel the way they do, and what's massively unhelpful is "we say no".

It's the truth over feelings bit that boils me.

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:23

babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:20

How can you know what she said if you aren't interested in reading the judgment?

I read her statement.

AlisonDonut · 06/07/2022 21:23

Struggling to rake up sympathy. She didn't look very "toll beaten" in her smug article today.

Well, the job loss was 3 years ago and she's been through a hell of a tribunal and won.

Did you want a daily mail 'sad face' and how long must a woman have a daily mail 'sad face' in order to be suitably 'unsmug' for appearance purposes?

Is there a checklist of emotions women are allowed to show or talk about and a contextual description of when they are allowed to show or talk about lest someone else get upset? If so can you share it for everyone?

It does sound terribly that you just want women to shut up, and have blank faces forever, with no emotions or feelings. What a joy you must be.

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:24

tigger1001 · 06/07/2022 21:22

Yet the tribunal agreed she has been discriminated against.

She is entitled to celebrate that victory. She lost her job illegally. She should celebrate holding her previous employers to account. Hopefully it means that employers will think twice about discrimination in the future. That's a good thing for everyone.

even though she discriminated against people in the first place.

Discrimination based on your views is not a thing. GC is not a protected characteristic, that is egotistical to say the least.

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:26

Quick question, @AlisonDonut - if, as your assertion, you can't change sex, you must assume that transmen are women.

So if they are upset and distressed by her words (which they will be) - should they just 'shut up'? cause they're not in your little gang?

Pot, kettle.

Helleofabore · 06/07/2022 21:29

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:12

The vast majority of trans do not transition - its something like 5 percent.

I am absolutely going for my under 18 (because these are the people I work with at the moment.) I have never, in 8 years of service, met a single MTF pupil.

I did use transitioner incorrectly there - I wasn't really sure what other word to use, if you see what I mean.

I can only go on anecdotal - I've said clearly and openly before that my bias (and it is bias) is based on the pupils I see in front of me. I talk about my trans friend, who is also FTM.

I've never met a real life MTF. I don't think many of us have, they're very rare. Other than those on twitter, and those mythical ones that hide in bathrooms, or that one the other day about the missing "woman" - MTF is sensationalist headlines and for me, that takes away from real people.

Your views have been shaped by lack of exposure then.

And in doing so, you are allowing that lack of exposure to miss the reality of the situation.

I would suggest that you are incorrect. The rapid increase in under 18 female transitioners have completely different needs and motivations than the adult male transitioners. Just because you don’t know any, doesn’t mean they are not out there and not in positions of influence.

And to be ‘trans’ means so many different things and includes people like Bunce who decides on what gender they are when they wake up. Or Eddie Izzard.

Those males in sensationalist headlines, they ARE real people too.

It would be transphobic to discount their experiences because you are focused on a different group of trans people.

babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:30

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:23

But there's the thing, and I'm sorry for this as I know you won't agree.

I don't believe you can have your own exclusive "word".

Last year, as per the same policy, I was told that care experienced/looked after (which I was) is now an additional support need.

an additional support need, i ask you.

So I'm now in one big bubble with every other additional support need. I can't tell you how angry I felt. And I'm on dodgy ground anyway, because I'm my parents' daughter. I'm my brothers sister. but if we start playing this truth over feelings game, I'm not.,

I stand with you on spaces. I stand with you on sports. I stand with you on prisons, on rape sessions, on counsellors, on health care professionals. As does my FTM friend as I've said many times, as would my pupils. They have no interest in taking your rights away from you.

They are real people, not the nutters on twitter.

The terrorists, because thats what they are, on twitter, couldnt give two shits about Maya's words. not two shits. But my friend, and my pupils will, when they read articles about her crowing.

If my friend, or one of my pupils, wants to change their name and call themselves a woman (or a man in the case of my friend) I have no issue with that. I really don't. And just because some idiots online threaten your rights, they don't, so why are they copping for it?

They genuinely feel the way they do, and what's massively unhelpful is "we say no".

It's the truth over feelings bit that boils me.

Right. So you don't actually respect my right to identify myself as a female person who doesn't share any kind of identity with trans women then.

If you don't respect my right to have a word to describe what I am, you are not respecting my identity, or whatever you want to call it.

We cannot protect sex based rights, or fight sex based oppression, if we are not allowed to have words for biological sex.

We need a word that means female people. And we need the word female, as well.

The word "woman" has been appropriated by male people, and they are now trying to appropriate the word "female" as well. And it's working. Stella Creasy, who has spent months banging on about how the lack of maternity leave and not being allowed to breastfeed in parliament are barriers to women entering politics. And then she says, not only are trans women women, but they are adult human females because they identify as female.

So she feels discriminated against because she is a member of the childbearing sex, but she doesn't think we need a word for the childbearing sex.

We absolutely do need our own exclusive word to describe our own biological sex. We are a distinct class of people, with our own biological reality, our own lived experience, our own unique forms of oppression as a result of our biology.

Denying female people the words to describe themselves is the ultimate male oppression.

So yes, I do disagree with you. Vehemently.

We need, and deserve, and should have, our own exclusive word for what we are, which people who are the literal opposite of us should not be allowed to "identify as".

That is why we are fighting for the words "woman" and "female".

And that is why trans women are not, and never will be, women.

They need to get their own word for whatever it is they believe they are, and leave women out of it.

AlisonDonut · 06/07/2022 21:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Yes I was in the garden in my house in the South of France, harvesting chilli peppers and tomatoes for tomorrow morning's bruchetta. Sometimes, people leave the computer and go do other things.

You were the one that called her smug. She's allowed to crack a smile when she wins an employment tribunal. You don't appear to be able to cope with much to be honest, after your meltdown earlier. I take it your lie down didn't help much.

babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:32

And you know, your position doesn't make sense.

You can't "stand with me on spaces" such as sports and prisons, whilst denying that we should even be allowed to have the language to describe who should be allowed in those spaces and who shouldn't.

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:32

Helleofabore · 06/07/2022 21:29

Your views have been shaped by lack of exposure then.

And in doing so, you are allowing that lack of exposure to miss the reality of the situation.

I would suggest that you are incorrect. The rapid increase in under 18 female transitioners have completely different needs and motivations than the adult male transitioners. Just because you don’t know any, doesn’t mean they are not out there and not in positions of influence.

And to be ‘trans’ means so many different things and includes people like Bunce who decides on what gender they are when they wake up. Or Eddie Izzard.

Those males in sensationalist headlines, they ARE real people too.

It would be transphobic to discount their experiences because you are focused on a different group of trans people.

Oh , the age old accuse someone of being transphobic and ignorant and try and be oh so clever to turn it on them, page 2 of the mn handbook. It's not clever and it's not funny, and it's actually quite pathetic. Seen it 100 times before. At least be original.

You'll excuse me if I don't take your views seriously.

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:34

babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:32

And you know, your position doesn't make sense.

You can't "stand with me on spaces" such as sports and prisons, whilst denying that we should even be allowed to have the language to describe who should be allowed in those spaces and who shouldn't.

Ah.

I can't agree with you or stand with you on certain issues, I must be all or nothing, and you will tell me what i can think
😂
Are we in a dictatorship now? the irony of feminists telling other people what they can think or say 😂

Helleofabore · 06/07/2022 21:34

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:18

There are no facts.

There's opinions.

I'm not an idiot, I know what she said and what she did.

I still think what I think about her. That's allowed.

Nobody's remotely interested in my opinions when I work with trans teenagers every day and see their faces and hear their words and can't possibly understand why I won't support a woman and her squad celebrating being utterly hurtful, so you'll excuse me if I'm not remotely interested in her nonsense.

No. You have shown you don’t know with your posts.

And your continued attempt to make your employment analogous to Maya’s is continuing to prove that you don’t know.

No one is calling you an idiot (if they are then report them) but you are prejudiced in that you refuse to read the facts and are demonising people who have the knowledge and you are monstering Maya Forstater. A fellow mumsnetter.

babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:35

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:34

Ah.

I can't agree with you or stand with you on certain issues, I must be all or nothing, and you will tell me what i can think
😂
Are we in a dictatorship now? the irony of feminists telling other people what they can think or say 😂

How can you stand with me on single sex sports if you don't think we should be allowed to have the vocabulary to distinguish between the two sexes?

Explain to me how you set the rules about who can compete in which category without using words to accurately distinguish between the two sexes.

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:36

AlisonDonut · 06/07/2022 21:30

Yes I was in the garden in my house in the South of France, harvesting chilli peppers and tomatoes for tomorrow morning's bruchetta. Sometimes, people leave the computer and go do other things.

You were the one that called her smug. She's allowed to crack a smile when she wins an employment tribunal. You don't appear to be able to cope with much to be honest, after your meltdown earlier. I take it your lie down didn't help much.

You're quite an amusing little donut, really. I only asked because you usually pop up every so often with your batshitness.

I assume the word "meltdown", usually attributed to autism or mental health, is funny to you, given you are using it as a weapon purely because I don't agree with you. Why doesn't that surprise me.

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:37

Helleofabore · 06/07/2022 21:34

No. You have shown you don’t know with your posts.

And your continued attempt to make your employment analogous to Maya’s is continuing to prove that you don’t know.

No one is calling you an idiot (if they are then report them) but you are prejudiced in that you refuse to read the facts and are demonising people who have the knowledge and you are monstering Maya Forstater. A fellow mumsnetter.

"monstering" She's a human being like everyone else. the fact she went public with her bigotry doesn't make her a patron saint.

I didn't try and make my employment analogous. I don't want to be in the same postcode as her.

I assume you "know " all, do you? How brilliant of you.

Helleofabore · 06/07/2022 21:38

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:32

Oh , the age old accuse someone of being transphobic and ignorant and try and be oh so clever to turn it on them, page 2 of the mn handbook. It's not clever and it's not funny, and it's actually quite pathetic. Seen it 100 times before. At least be original.

You'll excuse me if I don't take your views seriously.

I have not accused you of being transphobic, I have stated that to discount their experiences would be transphobic. If you are discounting their experiences, maybe you need to think why and if you are transphobic.

However, again, you are labeling so many others as ‘transphobic’ with limited knowledge (by your own admission) and with what is coming across as great enthusiasm. The hypocrisy is rather clear to see.

beautyisthefaceisee · 06/07/2022 21:38

babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:30

Right. So you don't actually respect my right to identify myself as a female person who doesn't share any kind of identity with trans women then.

If you don't respect my right to have a word to describe what I am, you are not respecting my identity, or whatever you want to call it.

We cannot protect sex based rights, or fight sex based oppression, if we are not allowed to have words for biological sex.

We need a word that means female people. And we need the word female, as well.

The word "woman" has been appropriated by male people, and they are now trying to appropriate the word "female" as well. And it's working. Stella Creasy, who has spent months banging on about how the lack of maternity leave and not being allowed to breastfeed in parliament are barriers to women entering politics. And then she says, not only are trans women women, but they are adult human females because they identify as female.

So she feels discriminated against because she is a member of the childbearing sex, but she doesn't think we need a word for the childbearing sex.

We absolutely do need our own exclusive word to describe our own biological sex. We are a distinct class of people, with our own biological reality, our own lived experience, our own unique forms of oppression as a result of our biology.

Denying female people the words to describe themselves is the ultimate male oppression.

So yes, I do disagree with you. Vehemently.

We need, and deserve, and should have, our own exclusive word for what we are, which people who are the literal opposite of us should not be allowed to "identify as".

That is why we are fighting for the words "woman" and "female".

And that is why trans women are not, and never will be, women.

They need to get their own word for whatever it is they believe they are, and leave women out of it.

well, you don't seem to respect very much.

You don't need anything. You want it.

Given that the very definition of a trans woman is someone who identifies as a woman, good luck with that.

babyjellyfish · 06/07/2022 21:38

Believing humans can't change sex isn't bigoted.

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