Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

And you're talking nonsense.

Both sides are 'wrong'.

TRAs: be kind or we will kill, rape, threaten, assault you, we will bomb you, we will track you down, we will take your jobs, your income, your businesses, your funding, your same sex spaces, your support groups, your networks, your gigs, your art, everything you stand for and the very words you use to describe yourselves oh and your kids.

Women who know sex is real: Male violence is the problem. See Exhibit A ^

TRAs: be kind or we will kill, rape, threaten, assault you, we will bomb you, we will track you down, we will take your jobs, your income, your businesses, your funding, your same sex spaces, your support groups, your networks, your gigs, your art, everything you stand for and the very words you use to describe yourselves oh and your kids

and then once this has taken place you need to compromise, you need to meet us halfway

and most of this stuff like the NHS removing ‘women’ from their literature (not men) leaves ‘genuine’ transpeople going …well I didn’t ask for this

So your trans person down the street is saying those things, are they?

Do I hold all feminists accountable for Bashir feminists?

No.

Yet for trans people, you deny their identity, mock them, call them an ideology, and then when you're bored of that you link them to nutters on Twitter.

The irony is you are part of the problem and it will go on and on.

I didnt ask you to meet TRAs halfway. I asked you to meet trans people halfway.

Yes, they didnt ask for it. So why are they collateral?

And luckily for me i never said you did…

Both transwomen and women are collateral damage in this situation

Happy for trans people to do their thing, as long as it doesn't infringe on me - not happy to be lied to when I ask for a female health care professional and I get a transwoman. Not happy for transwomen to have access to female only spaces, not happy for transwomen to compete in women's sport. The pronouns thing is bullshit - no sane person believes transwomen are women. They may not feel like men - but they are not women - maybe like in sport they need a new category. I suspect I am therefore a trans bigot and weirdly I am ok with that.

It doesn’t matter if i want to meet transwomen halfway…I don’t even know what halfway means in that instance

TRAs will still get in the way…they are the loud ones telling people where they think half way is

What does meeting trans people half way look like, @beautyisthefaceisee?

I don't think anyone minded pronouns a few years ago, but now pronouns are being used as evidence that we all agree that trans women are women and belong in women only spaces.

I can't respect a male person's identity as a woman because I do not believe a male person is a woman. And to agree that they can be one, just to be nice, would mean prioritising their belief that woman is an identity over my own belief that woman means female person, and my right not to share any kind of identity with them.

I'm not sure how we can meet people halfway when you either believe that trans women are women or you don't.

And before you mention trans men again, well no, I don't believe trans men are men either. The reason they don't feature so much in this debate is because they aren't taking sporting opportunities from male athletes or making men feel unsafe in their rape therapy groups. But you can't logically accept that trans men are men and not accept that trans women are women. The same logic has to apply to both.

i kinda thought we had halfway a few years ago before all this kicked off

obviously we had the same human rights whether that was upheld or not

transwomen used female toilets and changing rooms, joined womens clubs on occasion

then self id was mooted, some people realised that it would let in piss taking makes and then it all went tits up

@beautyisthefaceisee Yes furious and I'll continue to be furious.
Sick to death of men who think they're women, whether they've still got their balls attached or not, impinging on natural born females and demanding everything be their way.
You might bang your drum for them, but I won't.
You can sit bashing your keyboard all you like, but it won't change the fact that because of them, women are slowly but surely being eroded.
Chest feeders, womb carriers, people who menstruate? Pronouns to state my sex?
As I said, they can shove that shit up their arses!

Males not makes 😒

honestly…

@beautyisthefaceisee
Thank you for your explanation posted earlier.

I think we agree on a lot of things as it happens.
Sometimes I've been confused by a lack of precision in your language.
Saying "x is no better than y", or "x is not any better than y" (as you did), will always imply "x is just as bad as y" to me. Lots of explanation and sidetracking later and I do understand that is not really what you meant.

Similarly, if you had said to the pp who was upset "it's not only about you" or "it's not just about you" instead of the exclusionary "it's not about you" I would have had no argument with that. Again, the problem was with language. What you said implied something different to what you actually meant, I think.

The fact we seem to think that anything under rape and death threats is Ok is chilling. It really is.
Just because I"m questioning what you're saying doesn't mean that I, for one, think anything of the sort. You keep making sweeping generalisations like this with no evidence of their truth.

The activists, they are not outliers. They don't sit quietly on the internet, they are quite blatant about getting people kicked out of their jobs, screaming in people's faces if they dare to turn up to women's events. They are real and they are very, very scarey. They are often lauded for being 'feminsts' - one example just last week, the guy tweeting JKR's address along with instructions for making a pipe bomb is a 'feminist' apparently'. Just because someone says something does not make it true.

It is all completely out of hand. Why would we entertain for a single minute this mystical 'middle ground'? There is no middle ground.

Pronouns, just the tip of the iceberg.

@SmashingEgg

I'll second that until the end of time.

This.

Not to mention the fact that half the Labour front bench have adopted positions @beautyisthefaceiseewould no doubt claim were extreme TRA, as do Stonewall who are responsible for providing training to both children and adults and doling out sought after diversity points to businesses.

But you're not hapy for them to do their thing, that's a lie. I agree with you on the spaces, the health care professional, and the sport. That doent make you a bigot

However -
"the pronouns thing is bullshit - no sane person believes transwomen are women" - in what way is that letting them 'do theri thing? that bit is bigoted, yes.

Well, I personally believe both are both, but I wuld be happy to compromise with the term trans man or trans woman. What I won't budge on is refusal to use pronouns and referring to it as an "ideology".

"bashing your keyboard" Nice. Do you usually dismiss other womens' opinions?

Because of who? because of trans people? Who are these peole "demanding everything be their way"?

People regularly claim MN isn't nasty towards trans. No idea how they can when there are osts like that.

Women slowly but surely being eroded is down in part to atittudes like yours.

I'm not sure what's worse - being a bigot or blindly supporting one.

I don't think you've been confused by my lack of precision, you are just determined to trip me up when actually my points are quite reasonable.

Well, you seem so determined to defend womens' behaviour that you surely think it's relatively OK, otherwise you wouldn't have spent 3 pages arguing about a sentence.

It's not about believe that trans women are women.

It's about a world where @SmashingEgg and the ilk would not speak about trans people in the way they do, and idiots on twitter wouldn't speak about feminists the way they do. Then, we might have a fighting chance of a reasonable debate. @SmashingEgg re your point about chest feeders etc - do you think my 30 year old trans friend makes them rules? can you realy not see as per reindeer's point earlier that it affects him too?

Re whoever said about Stonewall in schools - that's a nonsense. They don't deliver the training, certainly not in ours.

You have to be Stonewall certified to be led by them (I worked in one where it wa granted and I met Ian McKellen). Most of the training was about homosexuality not trans.

I've lost the thread here. Let me go back and read it again.

Firstly, I assure you I was confused.

Secondly - no, I don't think it's okay.
Your logic doesn't follow, I'm afraid.

I'll leave it at that. I'm sorry, but it's too difficult to have a proper discussion with you.