Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

Compromise with people who, when you say the word 'women', issue rape and death threats.

Sure that will work.

Nice try, but I'm not attacking anyone.

But they're not doing that. The TRAs are (although you did call me a TRA and a MRA yesterday).

I don't condone that.

But nor do I condone women online calling trans an "ideology" and being frankly offensive.

I agree with Eddie fwiw, I don't agree with a word she says, or the hurt she's caused but she doesn't deserve threats.

Of course it would happen amongst feminists! Daily I see mocking of trans - just because you're not threatening death or rape doesn't make you "better" (now what a low bar to set".

I actually think genuine trans people and reasonable feminists are most reasonable of the four camps - yes four - TRAs, batshit feminists, reasonable feminists and genuine trans. So why can't they work together?

Clue - you dismiss their identity as an "ideology" and then expect them to be on board.

Where have I dismissed anyone as anything? I’ve barely posted on this thread since the start when the discussion was about pronouns still.

While I totally condemn people who mock trans people, and the men in dresses comments etc, I cannot agree that it’s as bad as rape and death threats. Do you really think that? Mocking someone is equivalent to threatening to kill them?

and the thing I said wouldn’t happen is that feminists - even the batshit ones - have never, to my knowledge, piled on someone for simply saying that someone shouldn’t be abused for their opinions even if they’re wrong. If that has happened I would be interested to know when, because I have genuinely never seen it.

Not you, personally!

No, I don't think that, and that's what I said.

But what a low bar to set! Oh, we never made death or rape threats and we didnt ile on for saying someone shouldnt be abused therefore we're much better.

No, no you're not.

My trans friend didn't do either of those things either, but he's still being mocked on the internet.

I would agree that the trans people I know in real life are not anything like the online activists. They’re actually being let down by them, because while some feminists will never accept trans women in any female spaces in any circumstances, my perception is there are a lot of women who are more flexible that that, however are being really alienated and getting pissed off by some of the more ridiculous things coming out of the activists’ mouths (or keyboards)!

All I can say though is I spend a lot of time on Twitter (night feeds and such!) and online, where someone makes a reasonable point which suggests compromise, such as let’s have a sensible conversation about how society should treat sex and gender, it’s the TRAs who take issue with it and pile on. I’ve seen than hundreds of times (not an exaggeration) over the last 5 years and I honestly don’t think I’ve once seen the reverse.

@beautyisthefaceisee Because I see it as an insult and another attack on us natural born females.
I refuse to take part in this woke nonsense and each time I'm presented with it by a company who I have dealings with they will be told in no uncertain terms where to shove that shit.
You might love the idea of being reduced to a pronoun, I don't.

I don't "love" it, but I'm not egotistical enough to be "furious".

The fact you see it as an attack and they can "shove their shit" is exactly what I'm talking about when PP question how there can't be a compromise. Because of people like you.

I agree.

i've bene absolutely pounded on the feminist boards in the past - both in trans and male issues, so I can't agree.

But again, as with Rhinos, I think you and I could have a reasonable respectful debate and would probably agree IRL.

Of course it would happen amongst feminists! Daily I see mocking of trans - just because you're not threatening death or rape doesn't make you "better" (now what a low bar to set".

While I totally condemn people who mock trans people, and the men in dresses comments etc, I cannot agree that it’s as bad as rape and death threats. Do you really think that? Mocking someone is equivalent to threatening to kill them?

No, I don't think that, and that's what I said.

No, you just said the exact opposite. You said not threatening death or rape ' doesn't make you better'...which surely implies it makes you just as bad?

It's impossible to argue with you @beautyisthefaceisee, because you're not effectively addressing a lot of the criticisms people are making. I said upthread that a point you made wasn't true and you responded by saying I was being mean to trans people and asking why my feelings mattered more. You never actually addressed the concerns I had.

The conversation I've quoted above is another case in point. Here, you're denying you said something that you actually said only minutes earlier. How can someone make an effective argument against that?

Trans people in real
Life may not be like the activists - 2 out of the 3 I know I would say are mild mannered rather than activist

But still doesn't mean I think TWAW for single sex purposes

A reasonable middle will only be found when both ways give compromise.
For as long as feminists continue to chum each other along with their bile, and TRA's do their bit, compromise won't be reached.
All of this "we say no" bit is all well and good but all it's actually doing is handing ammo to the other side.
All trans people get is dismissal insults and threats too if these threads are anything to go by.

I know that's what you think - and to be clear, I do not accept your wholesale mischaracterisation of the people who point out flaws in the basis on which trans identities are currently being used to appropriate female voices, history and provisions as "bile", in fact I reject it vehemently (which no doubt will trigger another round of "how come it's ok when someone on FWR calls a trans woman a man even though that is known to upset trans people, but not ok when I call feminists' voices bile?" - which I've seen played out enough in this thread so I'm not playing) - but that was not what I asked.

My question is Who? Who is going to make these provisions that you think so reasonable actually happen? Where is the political voice that will bring them into being?

You reject it coming from anyone who won't call a trans woman a woman or use cross-sex pronouns despite them explaining many times respectfully why these are not just trivial courtesies but deep wounds in the right of female people to self definition, political power and the right to exist as separate to male, and despite them being very happy to support trans people's right to safety, security, acceptance and happiness in everything except the appropriation of the reality of the opposite sex into an identity indistinguishable from their own.

TRAs will never support it.

Who then in your view is pure enough to be heard who can do this?

No.

Please actually read what I said.

I said that it's not equal - but that doesnt mean its as bad!

You might not be doing rape and death threats, and what you're doing isn't as bad as that, but it doesn't make what you're doing BETTER. It's quite simle to understand (unless you're deliberately misrepresenting me).

What concerns did I not address? Please ask me again.

It's easy to dismiss me when you're miserepresenting what I'm saying!

Someone who has respect for both.

@beautyisthefaceisee It is certainly not my intention to misrepresent you, but, no, I still think what you've said is quite different to what you think you've said.

Anyway, moving on...I was concerned upthread when you said being asked to add pronouns to email signatures was not about anyone other than the trans community.
This was following your comment to another poster...
'Why on earth would you be "furious"? NO thanks will do. It's not about you.'

When I suggested it was indeed relevant to women I was asked why it was only my feelings that mattered? (For the record I do not think only my feelings matter.)

So if you do want to try again, please go ahead.

Someone who has respect for both.

What will that person or group say that you would consider respectful to both? (Using TW here because the TM concerns are different)

Here's my guess at the sort of thing you mean:

"Trans women are valid women and have earned their pronouns. Nevertheless, they will be excluded from [list here, for me it would be women's sports, feminist political groups, political roles reserved for women, women's cultural prizes, intimate personal and medical care, areas where women may be undressed, women-only support groups, all women shortlists, recruitment drives aimed at increasing women applicants] because these are needed to support female people of any gender in a sexist culture."

I mean, that looks reasonable to me, but it unavoidably puts a limit on the degree to which trans women are women and for that reason I don't think it would ever be accepted by trans advocates.

Can you do better?

But that was a general question

If you are 'furious' that one would use pronouns, you are disregarding the feeling of trans people, no?

No not reasonable to me

I don't thnk tw are "valid women"
nor do i agree with TM instantly being cast aside!

No not reasonable to me
I don't thnk tw are "valid women"
nor do i agree with TM instantly being cast aside!

Ah, ok. That is a shame, it was an 100% genuine attempt.

To be clear, TM weren't cast aside. I've gone into my thinking around TM with you in some detail but for this post, in the interests of brevity I gave a partial example just around TW since that is the area where most differences seem to arise.

And I used "valid women" specifically because that is a phrase I see often used in statements from trans allies. I'm actually surprised you weren't ok with it.

BUT - it's just an example to get the conversation started. I was trying to work out what this Someone who has respect for both would say.

And ok, clearly I got it wrong but I'm sure you can do better.

What would you say?

"But that was a general question

If you are 'furious' that one would use pronouns, you are disregarding the feeling of trans people, no? "

What was a general question?

And I never said anything at all about being 'furious', that was a pp.

I simply asked why you thought the introduction of pronouns to everyone's email signature was a subject only of relevance to the trans community?
I wondered why you thought it was not 'about' the rest of us and not relevant to our lives?

(And, to be clear, I asked this because you said "It's not about you" to another poster when she was upset about being asked for her pronouns.)

You still haven't answered by the way...

No men, NO MEN, in women's spaces, girls' spaces. NO MEN. That should be clear enough.
NO MEN.
NO MEN.

Il make it clear then.

Do I think mocking people online is as bad as rape and death threats? No.
Do I think feminists have an equal part to play in the problem as the idiots on twitter? Yes.

Nust because they're not threatening to rape and murder anyone doesnt make their choices any better. It's a low bar to set.

In layman's terms - I work with children (donut will be back fuming about that again). The other day, one drew on someones stuff, he called her a fat cow and she hit him. In legal terms, the strike was worse. In morale terms, his caused more hurt. However, I didn't say, well he called you a fat cow and therefore you werent as bad. Because they played an EQUAL part in the incident. Ultimately it doesnt matter who was worse, both played a part. Life doesn't work on who was worse. If I batter the shit out of someone, a judge wont say oh well. You didnt kill them so it's okay.

The fact we seem to think that anything under rape and death threats is Ok is chilling. It really is. That aside, my trans friends didnt make thoss threats. Tra's did. A feminist was rude to me the other day, does that make you accountable? No.

I stand by my question.

Telling them you are furious and to shove their shit implies that only YOUR (not you, you see)feelings matter. cause the trans person who values pronouns isnr get a look in here.

Fwiw, I do see how it affects women.

But let's say there was a petition for safe spaces, and my trans friend didnt agree (he does, but imagine he didnt) and he was furious and said shove that shit. I would be telling him that womens' rights matter too and not just his.

I am completely, and squarely in the middle, (although when it comes to rape services and prisons and spaces etc I'm with you). But I am in the middle in terms of the morality side of things. Both 'sides' are wrong, and it will go on and on and on.

It is usually helpful if you read the thread before getting your caps lock on.

Nobody, me included, is saying otherwise.