Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

I enjoy the bank holidays, why?

This is transphobic.

Don't you see?

Well, if you want to push me, which you clearly do, you will push me towards being pro trans, come what may.

Okay then. So you're not in favour of some same sex spaces after all. Even though you said you were. Biological women who need rape counselling can suck it up. Got you.

Because you wont let me support trans but support feminists in certain situations.

Because you can't. By your own definition, supporting same sex spaces makes you a transphobe. That's your definition, no one else's. I don't think you've actually properly grasped any of this, because you don't even seem to get the contradiction you've created for yourself.

So I am off for bank holidays caused by something I don't believe in, because I see the joy and love it gives other people.

Yet you don't allow that for things you don't believe in.

I find you to be an intelligent poster, for all that we don't agree.

What/whydo you think 'trans' as a concept exists?

If gender were actually real, somebody would actually be able to explain what it is, in a way that makes sense.

It isn't transphobic to point out that the Emperor is stark bollock naked.

We've tried. But you don't listen,, you trip us up, you strawman us.

So I am off for bank holidays caused by something I don't believe in, because I see the joy and love it gives other people.

Right, but gender ideology isn't just about joy and love, is it? It's about detransitioners with missing body parts and women losing sporting opportunities to male athletes.

And to be honest, I don't think anyone objects to the bank holidays, because even if you don't believe, getting a day off work is nice.

Yet you don't allow that for things you don't believe in.

I don't want to be harmed for the sake of things I don't believe in, no.

Nor do I wish to be forced to pretend I believe in them, whether they are harmful or not.

What/whydo you think 'trans' as a concept exists?

Well, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? I'm pretty sure that old school transsexuals who had the op 30 years ago, Karen White, Lia Thomas and unhappy teenage girls looking up "top surgery" on the internet are all trans for the same reason, do you?

We've tried. But you don't listen,, you trip us up, you strawman us.

Try harder.

If gender isn't just sexist stereotypes, tell us what it is.

If gender is just sexist stereotypes, tell us why you want to rearrange society around it rather than trying to eradicate it.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Will pick this up in the morning!

If gender were actually real, somebody would actually be able to explain what it is, in a way that makes sense.
Yes, because we're all completely knowledgeable in all areas, come on now! 🙄

We've tried. But you don't listen,, you trip us up, you strawman us.
Exactly.

Same, jelly. X

thanks Janet.

It is not “transphobic” to say one doesn’t believe in gender identity anymore than it is “Islamophibic” to say one doesn’t believe in the teachings of the prophet Mohammed.

then "cisgender" shouldnt be offensive.

@BellePeppa Now try and explain the change in pronouns in an EFL classroom 😂

@beautyisthefaceisee
you say that you consider a person who has ‘fully transitioned’ is actually a woman. You do understand don’t you that ‘fully transitioned’ means that the man has had radical cosmetic surgery to remove his genitals and fashion a neo-vagina out of his colon? It means feminising surgery to reduce the size of his Adam’s apple and various other cosmetic procedures to create a more ‘feminine’ appearance. It does not and can never mean they have changed sex.
So in what way do you consider them a woman? They will never go through any biological process that an adult human female does.

That all sounds harsh but I genuinely don’t understand how you consider that a woman = a man without a penis. This is offensive to both men and women.

If I have my male dog castrated it is still a male dog.

People - humans, mammals - cannot ever change sex.
It's very cruel to push the lie on children and adults that "sex change" is possible, and even desirable; because it's not. It is particularly vicious to promote this lie among children, who tend to believe what they are told by adults.

That's it. Bare fact. People cannot change their sex.

Announcing pronouns, it just seeks to police people's speech and people's thoughts, and wrap it up in a fascist world view where only one view can ever be acceptable.

No.

Yes, for me this is one of the most disturbing things.

In previous generations, children grew up believing that a boy is a child with a willy and a girl is a child without a willy. Very occasionally, someone - usually male - would reach adulthood with long term, persistent dysphoria, and after researching the subject, would learn about transgenderism and the fact that some people take hormones and have surgery to ease their dysphoria.

Now children are being taught that they can choose whether to be a boy or a girl. God only knows what they believe boys and girls are, but they believe they can choose. In the same way that kids believe in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. So a little boy decides he's actually a little girl, and, encouraged by well meaning teachers and parents, changes his name and pronouns and starts wearing dresses. Children eventually realise that Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy aren't real. But boys and girls are real. So those children are never going to get to an age when they and all their friends realise this stuff isn't real. But they are going to get to an age where, despite having genuinely believed for the last five, six, seven years that they are the opposte sex, they learn that they are going to go through the "wrong" puberty.

What the hell do you do at this point? You either say, "Actually, we lied to you, you were a boy all along, and now you are going to go through male puberty and become a man, sorry about that!" or you say yes to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, surgery and all the rest of it, meaning that that child has no hope of ever living a normal life, will never have children of their own or any kind of sexual function.

Is this really supposed to be the kind option? Kinder than saying, "No dear, you've got a willy, that means you're a boy"?

Or others have the right to believe that if they want but not to push it onto others and call them “transphobic” if they don’t agree.

Or others have the right to believe that if they want but not to push it onto others and call them “transphobic” if they don’t agree.

They especially shouldn't be pushing it onto impressionable children, which is one of the reasons why the kind of "training"@beautyisthefaceisee talks about above is so very dangerous.

It's promoting gender ideology as though it is real, to people who are too young to see through it.

For me the core issue is that this movement demands to redefine Man and Woman as groups that can include either sex, but refuses to allow a backfill of sex into new words. It's not enough that we recognise gender, we have to unrecognise sex in any legal, social or physical arena other than medicine.

And that is because the meaning of women for these people, which some even admit, is "oh all the people who we already know are women, plus some male people who see themselves as the same". The role of those "people who we already know are women" is to just pretend nothing has changed and keep doing what they always did so the male people have the female world they identify into kept intact as the place they want it to be.

To this movement sex and gender are different when a male person identifies as a woman, but the same when female people ask for sex-specific provisions to backfill the support they lose when women's provisions become mixed sex.

Yep.

"Sex and gender are different" is the official explanation for why some male people are apparently women, but they insist on using the same words for sex and gender, and can't explain what gender is or why it is something we need to pay any attention to.

The way I see it is this: other than in situations where biological sex is relevant, you shouldn't be treating men and women differently.

The core issue of all of this for me is, that if you 'believe' that a man saying words automatically becomes a member of the opposite sex, for whatever reason and you include him as such, then you need another word to describe the actual members of the opposite sex. And we've seen for years that they are now calling men 'women' and women 'cis women'. So sidelining us from our own sex category.

Many people are opposed to this as we know that many men will use this to gain access to women's spaces, some of us have known about this for decades.

They rarely do this to men, calling women 'men' and men 'cis men'. Because there are less 'be kind' men than there are women. 'Be kind' equates to 'gullible' or 'scared shitless that someone will attack me for knowing that sex exists'.

Pronouns, which this thread is all about, are just a methodology of reinforcing this ideology and have been used by Stonewall as an example of organisations 'committment' to 'inclusion' and hence HR departments who have to justify spending £ on Stonewall are pushing it to show how very good they are being.

The core issue of all of this for me is, that if you 'believe' that a man saying words automatically becomes a member of the opposite sex, for whatever reason and you include him as such, then you need another word to describe the actual members of the opposite sex. And we've seen for years that they are now calling men 'women' and women 'cis women'. So sidelining us from our own sex category.

But even "cis women" doesn't mean adult humans of the female biological sex.

It means adult humans of the female biological sex who don't believe they identify as something other than a woman.

So it doesn't include female people who believe they identify as trans men or non binary, meaning it's not a word for all adult humans of the female biological sex. It's a word for adult humans of the female biological sex who call themselves women. It automatically reframes womanhood as something you can identify into.