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Original poster

Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

916 replies

landantan · 30/06/2022 15:37

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

OP posts:
beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 19:50

We find ourselves AGAIN at the point where I can't possibly support all of these random points that we haven't actually debated because I don't believe trans is an ideology.

I wonder how many people you could have on side if you actually listened - I'd be the first to insist that rape services are biological woman only and tbh, so would my transman friends. But you've already written me off because of my views.

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 19:51

@tigger1001 I addressed your point - can you address mine?

"Yet trans people have to listen to how they're either not trans, cause it's made up, or they are trans, to get into womens' bathrooms, or they are trans, because they want to escape being a woman (depending on who wants to pull them into politics first." true?

tigger1001 · 04/07/2022 20:03

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 19:51

@tigger1001 I addressed your point - can you address mine?

"Yet trans people have to listen to how they're either not trans, cause it's made up, or they are trans, to get into womens' bathrooms, or they are trans, because they want to escape being a woman (depending on who wants to pull them into politics first." true?

Your point isn't relevant to me.

I haven't said trans doesn't exist.

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 20:07

tigger1001 · 04/07/2022 20:03

Your point isn't relevant to me.

I haven't said trans doesn't exist.

Show quote history

But many have.

I've never said a lot of things I'm being connected to - the rape one is something I've never said anything like, I feel really strongly about that to the point I would disagree with my trans man friend being in a rape session, even if 'she' if you will, had ever been raped.

tigger1001 · 04/07/2022 20:07

"No, pal. I don't think that.

Nice try.

I fully stand with you on counsellors (misspelling on your part - I'm a trainee counsellor which will upset donut even further, despite the fact I'm taking that road as an ex DV survivor due to a particularly bad experience with the male policeman who attended) and I don't believe a man, trans or otherwise should be anywhere near a rape victim, and I don't believe in shared groups

I stand with you on prisons, shared spaces and sports.

So your problem with me is what?"

I don't have a problem
With you.

I find the term cis offensive. I find the government policies in scotland terrifying as they are eradicating women. We should all be afraid of that.

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 20:09

tigger1001 · 04/07/2022 20:07

"No, pal. I don't think that.

Nice try.

I fully stand with you on counsellors (misspelling on your part - I'm a trainee counsellor which will upset donut even further, despite the fact I'm taking that road as an ex DV survivor due to a particularly bad experience with the male policeman who attended) and I don't believe a man, trans or otherwise should be anywhere near a rape victim, and I don't believe in shared groups

I stand with you on prisons, shared spaces and sports.

So your problem with me is what?"

I don't have a problem
With you.

I find the term cis offensive. I find the government policies in scotland terrifying as they are eradicating women. We should all be afraid of that.

But you're assuming things to be terrified of that aren't there.

You've assumed I wouldn't be on board with the rape thing because I'm not jumping up and down about cis. Why?

tigger1001 · 04/07/2022 20:10

"But many have.

I've never said a lot of things I'm being connected to - the rape one is something I've never said anything like, I feel really strongly about that to the point I would disagree with my trans man friend being in a rape session, even if 'she' if you will, had ever been raped."

Well ask them their views. I can't give you that.

Different people have different views.

TheKeatingFive · 04/07/2022 20:13

I'd be the first to insist that rape services are biological woman only

But in that case you aren't treating the trans women who want to access them as women.

Upthread you said not treating trans women as women is transphobic.

That's a huge contradiction in your position .

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 20:15

TheKeatingFive · 04/07/2022 20:13

I'd be the first to insist that rape services are biological woman only

But in that case you aren't treating the trans women who want to access them as women.

Upthread you said not treating trans women as women is transphobic.

That's a huge contradiction in your position .

Because it's not black and white.

Certain things, for me, have exceptions.

Like rape.

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 20:17

tigger1001 · 04/07/2022 20:10

"But many have.

I've never said a lot of things I'm being connected to - the rape one is something I've never said anything like, I feel really strongly about that to the point I would disagree with my trans man friend being in a rape session, even if 'she' if you will, had ever been raped."

Well ask them their views. I can't give you that.

Different people have different views.

Yes, they do.

So why are all eople who don't agree that trans is an ideology treated the same?

tigger1001 · 04/07/2022 20:17

"But you're assuming things to be terrified of that aren't there.

You've assumed I wouldn't be on board with the rape thing because I'm not jumping up and down about cis. Why?"

Oh they are there alright. Being told I"identify" as a woman. Being told the correct term is cis. Being told that it's policy so it's not offensive. All real. And all terrifying. The normalisation of pronouns in emails, which can actively disadvantage women.

I didn't assume anything, it was an extension of the debate. I was expressing my views. Not arguing what yours were.

TheKeatingFive · 04/07/2022 20:18

Because it's not black and white.

well sex actually is, sorry to contradict you

Certain things, for me, have exceptions.

but you didn't allow the others you labelled transphobic to have these exceptions. They were just plain transphobic for doing exactly what you're doing now.

Is it just you that gets to have exceptions?

tigger1001 · 04/07/2022 20:18

"Yes, they do.

So why are all eople who don't agree that trans is an ideology treated the same?"

You mean people?

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 20:21

But you're assuming things to be terrified of that aren't there.
This

I find the government policies in scotland terrifying as they are eradicating women. We should all be afraid of that.
Just because you're afraid and terrified, doesn't mean we all should be.
I'm certainly not.
As I don't see including trans people as eradicating women.
You do, that's fine.
Not everyone does though.

tigger1001 · 04/07/2022 20:22

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 20:21

But you're assuming things to be terrified of that aren't there.
This

I find the government policies in scotland terrifying as they are eradicating women. We should all be afraid of that.
Just because you're afraid and terrified, doesn't mean we all should be.
I'm certainly not.
As I don't see including trans people as eradicating women.
You do, that's fine.
Not everyone does though.

When government start removing the word "women" from health leaflets, I can't help feeling women are being eradicated.

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 20:44

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 18:37

Well, if I'm HONEST - me not using cisgender would only involve your feelings, because I don't believe it's offensive. But I'd do it to spare your feelings.

So with that, would you be willing to use someone's pronouns, and not dismiss their beliefs? There's a starting point.

Eh, I can't quite work out how you think YOU are the victim of a religious dictatorship when youre the one deciding that someone else's identity doesn't exist.

Show quote history

I will reluctantly use someone's pronouns providing they haven't personally behaved in a way that is harmful to others. So not people like Lia Thomas, Laurel Hubbard, Mridul Wadhwa, Karen White etc.

If being honest about my own beliefs means dismissing theirs, well, sorry, but their beliefs aren't more important than mine. I won't pretend to share their beliefs about gender.

Their identity has nothing to do with me - or other people in general - which is why I believe they should use a different word for it, which is not "woman" or "man".

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 20:48

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 18:59

@beautyisthefaceisee out of interest..

Would you Express in your workplace that you see trans as an ideology?

I would in mine, yes.

But I don't work in the UK.

If I worked in the UK I would be afraid to, and I think that is fundamentally wrong.

I am allowed to say I don't believe in God, so why shouldn't I be allowed to say I don't believe in gender ideology? This is the only unprovable belief people are essentially forced to hold or pretend they hold. Why?

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 20:51

Yet trans people have to listen to how they're either not trans, cause it's made up, or they are trans, to get into womens' bathrooms, or they are trans, because they want to escape being a woman (depending on who wants to pull them into politics first).

Someone being trans isn't inconsistent with it all being made up.

We can acknowledge that Christians exist even if we don't believe in God.

Ultimately their motivation for being trans is irrelevant. They aren't entitled to redefine what the words "man" and "woman" mean.

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 20:52

TheKeatingFive · 04/07/2022 20:18

Because it's not black and white.

well sex actually is, sorry to contradict you

Certain things, for me, have exceptions.

but you didn't allow the others you labelled transphobic to have these exceptions. They were just plain transphobic for doing exactly what you're doing now.

Is it just you that gets to have exceptions?

Oh come on, Keating,. I can't win here.

You must see that.

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 20:52

Their identity has nothing to do with me - or other people in general - which is why I believe they should use a different word for it
See that's where we differ - Whereas I agree other people's identity has nothing to do with me, that's why I don't have a problem with using their pronouns as that's up to them.
They're their own person, they're not me.

beautyisthefaceisee · 04/07/2022 20:53

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 20:48

I would in mine, yes.

But I don't work in the UK.

If I worked in the UK I would be afraid to, and I think that is fundamentally wrong.

I am allowed to say I don't believe in God, so why shouldn't I be allowed to say I don't believe in gender ideology? This is the only unprovable belief people are essentially forced to hold or pretend they hold. Why?

Show quote history

then I can use the word cis in my workplace since I don't find it offensive, no?

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 20:58

Can you define the word cisgender?

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 21:02

then I can use the word cis in my workplace since I don't find it offensive, no?
Exactly.

babyjellyfish · 04/07/2022 21:04

I think you may be confusing the right not to have other people's beliefs forced upon you - which is the right I am asserting, with the "right" to force your beliefs on others, which is what you appear to think you have.

Calling people "cis" is forcing your beliefs on others.

GoodJanetBadJanet · 04/07/2022 21:07

Can you define the word cisgender?
what has that got to do with us saying we don't find cisgender offensive?
posters saying they can say what they like that they don't believe the ideology - you've blatantly skipped the question asked (which was so we can say cis, no?) and trotted out "define"
why?
it's like you're trying to just set it back round in circles.
What about what beauty asked?