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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do the general public know how bad the conditions in the NHS are?

648 replies

Gakatsbsk · 28/06/2022 20:09

Hello

Expecting to be roasted.

However, I’m an NHS staff nurse. Qualified almost 2 years. I’ve worked through the pandemic. I initially worked in England and now work in a different UK nation - which is better but only because England was so poor.

My union is about to start a consultative ballot for industrial action in light of the nhs pay offer. I have had two family ‘acquaintances’ (who do not work or have immediate family that work for the nhs) complain in one breath about delayed appointments, delayed A+E waiting times, cancelled surgeries etc but then in another tell me that nurses going on strike is disgusting, lucky to have a job, NHS more secure employment etc. These are of course English Tory voters who said this

For reference, I have never and will never cross a picket line and will be voting in favour of industrial action (whatever form that takes due to emergency cover staffing etc).

When I was a few weeks qualified as a nurse I was looking after double the safe ratio of patients in my speciality. Completely unsupported, me and my (equally junior) colleagues having to consult google for solutions to our patients problem, if a medical emergency occurred (in ICU there should always be medical cover - this isn’t the case) we had to pull a buzzer, put out a page and get on with it until a medic appeared. This has not improved post pandemic.

In my current workplace (same speciality area), different country we are the only part of the hospital that is safe staffed, because of this every single day nurses and HCAs are sent to general wards, A+E and different hospitals often to be the only RN on a ward for 30 patients. There is such a crisis of care home beds, and ward beds that patients are staying in critical Care for weeks waiting on a ward bed. On the wards patients aren’t able to be washed each day as there might only be 1-3 staff members for 30-40 patients, meds rounds take 4 hours and ultimately patients who are sick go unnoticed until they are peri arrest. Nurses from day shift often have to stay on to night shift as there is no night shift nurse available.

I have only had negatives from the general public - it’s our fault for having degrees and being too posh to wash, bring the matrons back, etc etc. our colleagues who trained in the 80s and 90s pre degree say it is the worst it has ever been for safety and staffing. Racism and xenophobia towards our brilliant overseas colleagues is rife when they keep the NHS clinging on by a shoestring.

Four and a half years ago I was a first year student nurse and times were hard for the NHS, it has only got worse and worse for my patients since then. For the sake of my patients I will take industrial action.

However, it is so concerning how anti union, anti public sector and pro Tory the English public seem to have become? The decisions and government of Westminster negatively affect every nhs patient and worker in the UK. Just look at the widespread abuse, disdain and disgust directed at the RMT workers recently. I fear the same or worse for NHS workers.

So, is this NHS worker wrong for not enjoying being told to be grateful to work for the NHS? Is there any future for the public sector of the UK?

I apologise if I seem to have generalised England but I am English and from a northern Tory heartland. An area completely brainwashed.

OP posts:
Gakatsbsk · 28/06/2022 22:30

@oldageprancer
Look up the mortality rates and out of court settlements in the US. That brilliant private system you speak of.

OP posts:
concernedrepurplehouse · 28/06/2022 22:31

“You can't strike for more resources, you can only strike for individual terms and conditions”

there we have the problem, the law prevents striking for what is needed!

Xenia · 28/06/2022 22:32

We may have come to a point where we lower people's income taxes by a quarter (the amount you pay for the NHS ) abandon the NHS and let people pay instead. We seem to have the worst of all worlds now.

Dominuse · 28/06/2022 22:32

1000yellowdaisies · 28/06/2022 22:20

I have worked in the NHS for 18 years. I think the issue with the NHS is that it needs a massive, long over due shake up.
It is a bloated, wasteful entity. Far too many managers vs staff on the front line actually delivering patient care. And far, far too many ridiculous and unnecessary admin jobs. Im not taking about the band 3 ward clerks, im talking about the cottage industry of highly banded corporate admin roles in departments like HR, equality and diversity, organisational development...

But professional standards have also dropped on the wards. Nurses in particular often seem to have borderline contempt towards their patients and there's a general lack of courtesy. I think that's what people are referring to when they say bring back the matrons.

This.

nurses see certain jobs as beneath them
doctors see certain jobs as beneath them

the money wasting is a farce

it is funded

some nurses are poor examples of good nursing, as are some doctors.

my brother is a top surgeon - wanted to change a bulb to a higher lux and change a blind - department quoted £180 to change the bulb which cost less than £20 and over a £800
to change the blind. He got his drill and did both and despite being a top surgeon got told off by managers cost him less than £100- you couldn’t make it up.

the dark side of the nhs does need exposing and with that comes changed not everyone likes

carefullycourageous · 28/06/2022 22:32

RosesAndHellebores · 28/06/2022 22:28

The problem is that too often nurses don't behave professionally in the UK. I'd happily pay more for a system on a par with the French system. I will not pay more for the NHS until there is root and branch reform and the rot at its heart is addressed.

Actually, I'd rather die than ever attend my local hospital ever again.

Would you really Hmm

Windypants21 · 28/06/2022 22:33

I am a nurse near retirement, I have a friend who works in A&e. She has been qualified 5 years. A great nurse but totally demoralised and war weary. She and her colleagues get abused daily by members of the public. Joe Public has NO IDEA just how bad things are, until they have to visit the service. Every TORY vote is a vote for privatisation. If you want to pay thousands for healthcare then vote Tory because it is happening by stealth. Boris, Hunt,Sunak and co will be lining their own pockets and their chums on the back of our suffering. Sadly people who won't suffer too much during this depression won't give 2 damns about the rest of us as they can afford private healthcare. Of note too is the fact that NONE of the taking over of nhs healthcare into private enterprises is ever mentioned on the British media.

Mandatorymongoose · 28/06/2022 22:33

@oldageprancer

NHS pay scales are freely available. Anyone earning 50k + is a band 8a (with 5 years or so in that role) or above which is significantly higher than the vast majority of nurses will ever reach.

Community mental health team manger is a band 7 and has overall responsibility for 100s of patients.

Band 8a is perhaps nurse consultant, ours has a PHD and writes NICE guidelines for that grand sum.

Most nurses work at a band 5.

Fifi0102 · 28/06/2022 22:34

oldageprancer · 28/06/2022 22:28

So nurses should either leave for abroad or campaign for US style private healthcare. Go for it! Sounds like you would do much better under a privatised system, and maybe patients would do better too.

I plan to leave, I think we should have an Australian style healthcare not 100 percent privatised but more of a mixture. The cost of medical care is going to get more expensive as technology continues to advance. The NHS isn't simply designed for it.

HRTQueen · 28/06/2022 22:34

I don’t actually agree with fighting for the NHS

It’s flogging a dead horse

we need a new healthcare system a superior healthcare system that’s what needs fighting for

forget free at the point of service it’s not sustainable we have to let it go and move on. It was at one point fantastic bit times have changed

carefullycourageous · 28/06/2022 22:35

Xenia · 28/06/2022 22:32

We may have come to a point where we lower people's income taxes by a quarter (the amount you pay for the NHS ) abandon the NHS and let people pay instead. We seem to have the worst of all worlds now.

Yes that is the plan. Fuck the NHS until enough of those who can't afford private agree with those who can afford private.

Never mind the long term harm it will do to our productivity and happiness as a nation, let's carry on down the US route when what we should be doing is looking to Europe.

Gakatsbsk · 28/06/2022 22:35

@RosesAndHellebores

There’s over 700,000 nurses on the NMC register. You do a good job of generalising. If one nurse is caring for 40 patients the standard isn’t going to be as good as one nurse for 4 patients. You don’t seem able to understand this? Another thing is some patients seem to think nursing staff should take verbal and physical abuse and assault with no complaint - asking to not be assaulted at work is not discourteous or unprofessional. If I came in to your work place and punched you I’m sure you’d not be pleased.

OP posts:
mmmmmmghturep · 28/06/2022 22:36

Your granny can't cope living alone at home due to old age and frailty? Take her to a&e and get her admitted to an acute hospital bed and then refuse to take her home. NHS problem now

Then maybe you should campaign for a rise in Carers Allowance because you know its women doing most of the caring no? This doesnt quite marry up with what you were posting on the "relying on their husbands in the 21st century thread. Do those feminist credentials of yours so evident on that other thread dissipate when it comes to the NHS??!!!

HelenMirrensWeightedBlanket · 28/06/2022 22:36

I spent a week in hospital earlier this month. The nurses were incredible - kind, helpful, made me feel human after a horrible invasive and traumatic surgery.

I witnessed them working 12.5 hour shifts with no time to eat, pee or drink water. My surgeon saved my life on the operating table, but it was the nurses who put me back together so I’m able to live my life again.

i support you 100% - including your right to strike. The alternative is privatisation, and people on low wages dying because they can’t afford health care. That’s not a society I want to live in and I’ll fight against privatisation as long as there’s breath in my body.

Fifi0102 · 28/06/2022 22:36

You can get 50k nursing in a clinical role but it won't be in the NHS it's private healthcare and agency.

Theluggage15 · 28/06/2022 22:37

The NHS has doubled the number of bureaucrats since the pandemic and hasn’t spent money on clinical staff. They have loads of expensively paid non jobs. It wastes shit loads on procurement because it’s not organised properly. You want more staff, more pay? well blame the NHS.

The NHS has plenty of money but just doesn’t spend it wisely.

And everyone knows how shit the NHS is, that’s why they’re negative about it, everyone knows someone with a horror story, but the answer isn’t throwing more money at an unreformed, failing organisation. Make it into a far superior European system.

Fairisleflora · 28/06/2022 22:37

Nurses deserve a big pay rise, and full training bursaries.

Doctors, less so. I know lots of GPS but none of them work full time. They make quite enough to live off happily only getting paid for 3 days. And then they loan about how busy they are (which I agree they are). But if you choose to go into a career with an extremely limited training intake and then choose to work only half a week, what do you expect? I’d have sympathy if it didn’t cost the public so much to train you. And they are calling for a 30% pay rise.

Strangeways19 · 28/06/2022 22:37

Honestly I think the NHS is broken & has been for quite a long time.

@choosername1234 this is the same for shop workers & shift workers across the board, I don't think this is a long enough break for anyone in any job.

My DD works in a supermarket & she works gruelling hours (5am starts & 10 hour shifts,) not bad pay I think £11 an hour but the breaks are pretty rubbish from what I can gather similar to yours. I think at her age (early 20's,) she's got the energy, I couldn't do it at my age I don't think honestly (mid 50's), unless I absolutely had to.

I used to work in social care & found the system equally as broken as people are saying the NHS is. I only lasted 5 years was completely burnt out, pissed off with management overuse of power, clients were fine I could cope with that, but the overall structure was appalling not to mention some of the rubbish decisions made.

Gakatsbsk · 28/06/2022 22:38

I do not dispute a drop in professional standards but how you can expect a nurse to care for 30-40 patients to the same standard as they would for 4-8. This is one problem, expecting the same standard when there is no one to give it. You can’t have good care when no one is available to give it.

OP posts:
justasking111 · 28/06/2022 22:39

Friends in the NHS so we hear how bad it is. GP friend says patients because of covid and treatment being delayed for so long are a lot sicker than they would have been for some it's too late they're dying.

My DB lives in China has been in hospital twice once for heart bypass once for knee operation. He said family are expected to bring in the food, wash, take to the loo and carry out these tasks as they would caring for a sick loved one at home. His MIL was a very good carer.

Anon1717 · 28/06/2022 22:39

I don't support the RMT strikes but DO support an NHS one. Completely different skills and qualification levels.

Gakatsbsk · 28/06/2022 22:39

@Fifi0102 but why should I have to? Nursing in the NHS should be a viable career?

OP posts:
Nanananananana99 · 28/06/2022 22:40

RosesAndHellebores · 28/06/2022 20:41

I am afraid when I needed NHS support last year the nursing staff were yelling at polite and courteous patients in an entirely disproportionate manner. If they are graduate professionals they need to behave like professionals. When we eventually got to resuss there were more nurses than patients and they were all nattering about their breaks. It was inhumane.

I presently have 300 staff at risk of redundancy.

If there are issues in the NHS they are because patients for decades have been expected to express gratitude for suboptimal standards. This combined with CV building and a disingenuous approach to massage targets.

No I don't think you should strike. Professionals do not strike if that is what you want to be.

I do think the NHS is unfit for purpose and we need a Continental system of social insurance.

Vive la revolution.

PS: my consultant's secretary is still working from home. It took me two days to get a reply to a message and of course I couldn't be transferred because they are all working from home.

It's an utter fiasco. I didn't clap. Neither did the surgeon who lives opposite me.

“Professionals don’t strike…” What a load of crap!

Name me a profession that doesn’t strike. (Non-unionised, exploited ‘industries’ don’t count)

Incase you haven’t noticed, barristers across England and Wales are currently on strike. We all know teachers strike, pilots and airport staff strike. All professionals strike, usually as a last resort to improve safety and standards within their industry.

The only ‘professionals’ who don’t strike are the police and prison guards because the law prevents them.

Prey tell us what big important job you have that you are happy to do with no pay rises, falling levels of health and safety, and falling standards?

RosesAndHellebores · 28/06/2022 22:40

@carefullycourageous yes.
@Windypants21 regrettably the last time I attended my local hospital I witnessed the nurses abusing the patients by shouting at them when they made polite requests. It was disgusting. One of them rolled their eyes at my husband; the junior doctor spoke to me as though I was a piece of decrepit shit and misdiagnosed a serious injury.

InChocolateWeTrust · 28/06/2022 22:40

I've spent years thinking that nurses, midwives, teachers etc all need better pay. Especially the specialised nurses etc you get in intensive care.

I'm a high earner in a corporate role and regularly feel like screaming at the government "TAX ME MORE!!". People like me should be paying our way, giving back to the system.

RosesAndHellebores · 28/06/2022 22:41

Oh and I have a six page letter of apology which doesn't go quite far enough.