Do the general public know how bad the conditions in the NHS are?

[Gakatsbsk]

Hello

Expecting to be roasted.

However, I’m an NHS staff nurse. Qualified almost 2 years. I’ve worked through the pandemic. I initially worked in England and now work in a different UK nation - which is better but only because England was so poor.

My union is about to start a consultative ballot for industrial action in light of the nhs pay offer. I have had two family ‘acquaintances’ (who do not work or have immediate family that work for the nhs) complain in one breath about delayed appointments, delayed A+E waiting times, cancelled surgeries etc but then in another tell me that nurses going on strike is disgusting, lucky to have a job, NHS more secure employment etc. These are of course English Tory voters who said this

For reference, I have never and will never cross a picket line and will be voting in favour of industrial action (whatever form that takes due to emergency cover staffing etc).

When I was a few weeks qualified as a nurse I was looking after double the safe ratio of patients in my speciality. Completely unsupported, me and my (equally junior) colleagues having to consult google for solutions to our patients problem, if a medical emergency occurred (in ICU there should always be medical cover - this isn’t the case) we had to pull a buzzer, put out a page and get on with it until a medic appeared. This has not improved post pandemic.

In my current workplace (same speciality area), different country we are the only part of the hospital that is safe staffed, because of this every single day nurses and HCAs are sent to general wards, A+E and different hospitals often to be the only RN on a ward for 30 patients. There is such a crisis of care home beds, and ward beds that patients are staying in critical Care for weeks waiting on a ward bed. On the wards patients aren’t able to be washed each day as there might only be 1-3 staff members for 30-40 patients, meds rounds take 4 hours and ultimately patients who are sick go unnoticed until they are peri arrest. Nurses from day shift often have to stay on to night shift as there is no night shift nurse available.

I have only had negatives from the general public - it’s our fault for having degrees and being too posh to wash, bring the matrons back, etc etc. our colleagues who trained in the 80s and 90s pre degree say it is the worst it has ever been for safety and staffing. Racism and xenophobia towards our brilliant overseas colleagues is rife when they keep the NHS clinging on by a shoestring.

Four and a half years ago I was a first year student nurse and times were hard for the NHS, it has only got worse and worse for my patients since then. For the sake of my patients I will take industrial action.

However, it is so concerning how anti union, anti public sector and pro Tory the English public seem to have become? The decisions and government of Westminster negatively affect every nhs patient and worker in the UK. Just look at the widespread abuse, disdain and disgust directed at the RMT workers recently. I fear the same or worse for NHS workers.

So, is this NHS worker wrong for not enjoying being told to be grateful to work for the NHS? Is there any future for the public sector of the UK?

I apologise if I seem to have generalised England but I am English and from a northern Tory heartland. An area completely brainwashed.

but it's not generally the case that private hospitals are fast and loose with patient safety
Im afraid that is completely wrong.
Private hospitals always blue light to the NHS in an emergency situation.
They arent equipped in any way to deal with anything going wrong.
The NHS has a wealth of knowledge and skills, teams onsite, ICU, blood bank, rapid response team.
A consultant coming round every day is nice but most wouldnt have a clue if the shit hit the fan and probably wouldnt be there when it did.
I wouldnt consider going under the knife in a private hospital even for a nice room and carpets .

Although remember the NHS now contracts out to private hospitals many operations. When someone we know was having one done private recently on a child of 10 children there only that one was a true priate patient., All the others were getting the same thing and same luxuries but not paying a penny as the NHS had booked them into the private place!

They don’t represent your care. They very well represent other peoples’ care, though. It isn’t on you to say “well I had good care so everyone else has to agree with me”, when a lot of people are pushed from pillar to post for months, wait years for life changing surgery (ie a hip replacement), and then more often than not get that surgery cancelled at least once before it even happens.

The NHS needs to be held accountable for a lot of their failures. If people complain about how they were treated, something might get better. If everyone sits and says nothing then the NHS will never improve.

We pay for this service. It needs to perform. Patients should not be leaving hospital without treatment/in worse shape than they were in/traumatised.

Maternity wards are barbaric at times. You don’t need to look far on this website for threads full of thousands of responses of women sharing their stories of how the hospital fucked up and they nearly died/their child nearly or did in fact die, or they’re traumatised to the point of PTSD, or at the very least, PND.

As I said earlier in the thread, when I went in to give birth to my first DD, I was belittled and scoffed at 30+ hours into labour when I’d been awake for over 48h at that point for daring to be sick. I was bullied by a HCA who broke me down to tears every single night over a 5 night stay. My pain management was repeatedly forgotten about. My baby was took down for blood tests repeatedly and brought up time and time again with “we couldn’t get any done, we’ll try again later” covered in bruises and prick marks from failed attempts while crying hysterically (I understand it’s difficult to take blood from a newborn but she literally was covered on both hands and both feet). No one would help me to get her out of the cot to feed her when I’d just came around from GA and had already had an epidural so my movement wasn’t fully back yet. The fact I literally had to tie my dressing gown tie to the side of the bed to use it to pull myself up over a 30 minute period is ridiculous, especially when about 8 midwives were sitting at the desk laughing at their phones during this time. There was zero respect for privacy- curtains constantly thrown open. I also got berated by a cleaner or someone to that effect for daring to have a packet of baby wipes, a set of clean baby clothes neatly folded, a clean nappy and an infant feeding chart set on my table, instead of just having a jug of water there instead. Because, yes, as someone recovering from a c section I will definitely put things I will absolutely need within the next few hours in the far corner and not have things close to hand so I can stay comfortable and not leaving baby fussing while I try to find everything.

The whole experience left me traumatised. I cannot tell you how many nights I cried myself to sleep when I found out I was pregnant with much wanted DD2 when I realised I’d have go to back there again. I have never felt so powerless and vulnerable in my entire life.

So yes, you may have received good care, it doesn’t mean everyone else has. Don’t dare be so presumptuous and dictate how we should feel. You haven’t a fucking clue.

During Covid several services were outsourced the private.
Staff also moved to cover and the standards of care and particularly infection control were shocking!

Sorry that doesnt make sense.
NHS staff found the standards of care and IC in the private sector shocking.

Private locum agencies are leeches.

Many locums arrive with no clue about the hospital they're working in, have no access to IT and can do the bare minimum - they're carried by the permanent staff and paid more than them.

There is absolutely no incentive for agency staff to become permanent when they can pick and choose their hours and earn more for doing less of a job, than if they were permanently employed by the hospitals.

So many people complain about the care they recieve, but how many were 'cared for' by agency staff who are here today and gone tomorrow?

While there are massive holes in staffing, agencies will suck money from trusts.

There need to be caps on what locums earn and the premiums taken by agencies.

Sajid Javid and Rishi Sunak have jumped ship!
3 -2-1 Go Boris!

Hi,

The patient was on the waiting list for an NHS hip replacement, they paid privately for it to be done more quickly. This is a very common occurrence ? On the news all the time?

The waiting list in my area at the time was 13 weeks. By paying privately they could have it the next week.

Their NOK also didn’t want to risk the patient having an op in an NHS hospital, we all shed a tear at the horrific irony.

When I worked in England operations were cancelled at my NHS hospital due to the pandemic. The private hospital continued to operate despite having no HDU, let alone ITU provision and without the blessing of the NHS hospital. We received many patients post op who were too sick for the private hospital, on top of covid patients. At one point we had 45 patients in critical care. We were staffed for 16 patients. 6 of these were from the private hosp. One patient came with an undetected (until on 999 Amb transfer) pneumothorax caused by a CVC being inserted incorrectly by a non specialist doctor (who had been barred from working in the NHS) and due to a lack of confirmation of line placement normally by CXR or CT, with VBG - this would’ve allowed for corrective measures to prevent the PTX.

Profit has no place in healthcare.

In the USA, the maternal mortality rate was 23.8% in 2020 - source CDC. In the UK with the NHS it is 5-8% (different per UK nations). Are Womens lives worth private healthcare?

The majority of NHS workers would agree with you. I agree agencies should have a cap.

I don’t begrudge my colleagues picking up a shift or two a month with an agency to make ends meet.

Agency caps alone wouldn’t solve the problems of the NHS and the media likes to fixate on this. Nurses are driven to agencies, HCAs to agencies and medics to agencies for a reason - poor pay, poor conditions and poor work life balance.

Yes - and it might reduce the waiting list but it certainly doesn’t improve anything else in the NHS.

If the OP is still watching this thread - thanks for starting it. I hope you can get involved with a trade union and continue to fight for your patients.

I go back to work soon so won’t keep up with the thread but it’s been an experience

Private hospitals always blue light to the NHS in an emergency situation. They arent equipped in any way to deal with anything going wrong.

That's not the point I was making though. I was referring to taking steps to safeguard patient safety, with particular reference to the stories about private hospitals being lax about procedures to minimise the risks of blood clots after surgery.

Every possible precaution was taken, including inflating flowtron boots for the first 24 hours and regular monitoring by staff. I genuinely can't imagine the NHS would have taken any additional measures, particularly given how stretched medical staff are, as described on this thread.

It's your prerogative to support the NHS. Personally I've had mixed experiences in the NHS and positive experiences privately. Others may have had the reverse.

But I will disagree with portraying all private hospitals as cowboy outfits that regularly put patient safety at risk. Yes, they may have limited ICU facilities but they try their best to prevent you getting to that stage. They also have good ratios of medical staff to patients. My consultant has a quarter of the time for each NHS appointment, compared to his private ones.

And yes, I do appreciate how hard the NHS staff work in trying circumstances.

TiredNurse Profit has no place in healthcare.

The Dutch system is composed of private non profit making sickness funds who compete against each other on the marketplace under strict conditions. Their main benefit is to society and to the people they employ. Its an excellent system, better than the NHS.

In the USA, the maternal mortality rate was 23.8% in 2020 - source CDC. In the UK with the NHS it is 5-8% (different per UK nations). Are Womens lives worth private healthcare?

You are saying that nearly one quarter of all women giving birth in the US in 2020 either died or their child died? Are you sure? That statistic wouldn't even cover the most third world of third world countries. American women would barely risk giving birth if they had a 1 in 4 chance of dying...

It is not a choice between the American system and the NHS. There are many public healthcare systems that perform far, far better than most - the German system, the Dutch system, the French system, for example.

The problem is that the NHS, although not profit led, is increasingly cost led and micro-managed to award management success in achieving savings, not by patient welfare.

I appreciate other systems are available - European and Scandinavian models. But the Tories have no interest in a quasi model or a reformed public sector.

The smaller the public sector the better for them, no public sector at all will be many Tories wet dream. It’s a nice thought to reform it, wrong political party. If they’d been interested in reform similar to a European model I imagine they might have got round to it in the last 12 years. After all, they have been in government since 2010.

I apologise the maternal mortality rate in the US is 23.8 per 100,000 live births. In the UK it is between 5-8 per 100,000 live births. The % is wrong. However, 23.8 is per 100,000 women is still shocking. Out of 3,613,647 live births in the US there was 861 maternal deaths. www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020/maternal-mortality-rates-2020.htm
By comparison, in the UK out of 2,173,810 live births there was there was 191 maternal deaths. (I was interested to learn the UK has a higher fertility rate)

This to me is shocking. I appreciate I made an error of units. I’m no statistician. But having cared for two patients who died recently after giving birth . I consider the UK to have room for improvement. There are many healthcare professionals in the US educating around the crisis of maternal deaths - especially recently. The NHS might have many failings but an almost wholly privatised system is doing far worse.

@AchatAVendre

I agree that the focus of the NHS should be patient welfare. I’ve not met a nurse who would disagree. However, I believe a major factor in why the NHS is so cost led and micro managed is the policies and mismanagement of the current govt.

Hi,

I know the person you quoted is not me but your reply overlaps considerably with points I made.

Many of the consultants in private healthcare also work for the NHS, especially surgeons and anaesthetists - the standard of their work and their GMC registration doesn’t change just because they aren’t in an NHS facility.

Whilst I’m sure they work hard to prevent medical emergencies, sending a patient with symptoms of an MI to bed is not appropriate care or treatment. (See my PP).

Even one person dying due to being ill equipped (see my post for details on the many standard treatments my patient who died would’ve benefitted from post cardiac arrest that weren’t available in a private hosp) As a nurse I advocate for my patients, they are ill equipped in the four areas I’ve worked in to deal with emergencies. Lack of blood products, inadequate critical care skills, lack of ICU treatment (even in private hospitals with ‘ICU’) . Your post seems to dismiss ICU as if it’s one tiny part of a system - emergencies can happen - ICU care saves lives - a delay to be transferred from a private hospital kills. As an ICU nurse I would never take treatment in a private hospital as it is not worth the risk to my life. This is regardless of how hard they try to prevent emergencies - not all can be prevented.

The OP made it clear that the hypocrisy was people complaining about the NHS but then criticising staff for complaining about it. You seem to be defending private healthcare based on your personal experience but dismissing the (fatal) and (life altering) experiences that I have described, as have PP.

I'm not dismissing them. Your points are all fair and valid. I was simply objecting to the generalisation that all private hospitals compromise patient safety.

The same way that NHS staff on here have, quite rightly, objected to similar sweeping statements about the NHS.

VTE risk assessment and care is standard and has been for a number of years in NHS Trusts and data is collected and trusts fined of they do not comply.
Flowtron therapy is regularily used for patients who are immobile post op or ventilated and of course they are carefully monitored-its a medical device that can be dangerous and so regular monitoring and skin checks are done.
I dont mean to be rude but its pretty standard care.

Ive never been admitted to either NHS/ Private as an inpatient so Im not on either side but my experience as an HCP and seeing how ill equipped to deal with even a moderately unwell patient they are would ensure I wouldnt consider surgery done privately.
There will always be someone who reacts badly, bleeds or has other unforeseen complications, its not a case of not doing their best, just the nature of the beast.
Not a chance!

@Snoredoeurve Ive never been admitted to either NHS/ Private as an inpatient so Im not on either side but my experience as an HCP and seeing how ill equipped to deal with even a moderately unwell patient they are would ensure I wouldnt consider surgery done privately.
There will always be someone who reacts badly, bleeds or has other unforeseen complications, its not a case of not doing their best, just the nature of the beast.
Not a chance!
But have you spent three years in agony unable to walk far on a waiting list? Until you have, and refused private care (assuming of course you can afford it) then it doesn't mean much to have a strong opinion against private healthcare.
Or on an nhs cancer referral that's taking months ... is it really better to wait for that op, while the cancer spreads?

@LuaDipa your post in relation to your generalisation of nurses proves OP point that the general public do not have a clue on what really goes on.

The care that your family has received is certainly inadequate and unacceptable and there is no question about this. However to generalise all nurses as piss poor is unfair. There are good and bad in all professions
I have been qualified now 18 years. I previously worked in the hospital and left several years ago. I won’t ever go back.

The targets you are referring to are not set by the nurses, they are set by the government.

As a newly qualified nurse 2 weeks after training,

I was asked to look after 7 patients as there was no staff. I declined as I felt I needed more support. The supper was promised so I agreed reluctantly but unfortunately that support never came. 2 cardiac arrests on the ward and a busy evening in a&e meant that the person supporting me had to manage the ward. I was still learning about all the different medicine and finding my feet. A doctor prescribed some medication incorrectly, luckily I didn’t give it but would have been hazardous had this been done.
On another occasion. I was in a night shift. A&e was extremely busy and ambulances were queuing outside. No beds in ICU. People were on corridors in a&e. No beds in the hospital but due to them being poorly they needed to be made priority.
That night I was was looking after a gentleman who was scared waiting for a bed on CCU after having a heart attack. A young brittle asthmatic on 30 minute observations who was waiting for an bed on ICU and who had oxygen saturations of 85% on full 15l bag of oxygen
There was also a man who was an alcoholic and withdrawing from alcohol which meant he was extremely confused and trying to pass urine on other peoples beds. Kept trying to rip out his IV line that would give him the drugs that would help him reduce his withdrawal symptoms.
There was a further 3 elderly patients in my care that evening, two with confusion and the other lady had been admitted as she wasn’t coping at home and her son wanted to go away for the week but hadn’t been able to sort out any care for her prior.
I went home, hugged my kids and cried my eyes out which I did pretty much a lot.

So please do not generalise all nurses as piss poor. We are human beings who are being ground down by a failing system and not being listened to. I. went into my job to make a difference like many others and couldn’t.
Please direct your anger at the government who fail every year to listen to us. This will not get better and if people think it will they are sorely mistaken. It will just be a crappy private firm in charge of the services and paying the wages of the piss poor nurses which in many areas has already happened. The public just don’t realise it.

So sorry you had such an awful start to your career. For some I think they still see us the chattels of the doctor with no autonomy of our own. Poor care is out there and it isnt good right or proper but as your post illustrates if you are one nurse with 10 patients (or 8 or 6) , and just one deteriorates and there is only you, it doesnt leave you much time/choice for the other 9. Hence the 'poor care' in many incidences. Very sad but true.

Had a conversation today with a colleague who was at an international health care conference.

The feedback is bleak. Every countries health care systems are crumbling under the pressure of the effects of the pandemic and care of the elderly (or lack thereof)

Lots were saying they couldn't possibly cope with elective surgery so have paused them again.

So I'm afraid that the idea that privatisation is the answer to all our problems is a load of rubbish

@Windypants21 thank you for your kind words. You are very correct. X