Do the general public know how bad the conditions in the NHS are?

[Gakatsbsk]

Hello

Expecting to be roasted.

However, I’m an NHS staff nurse. Qualified almost 2 years. I’ve worked through the pandemic. I initially worked in England and now work in a different UK nation - which is better but only because England was so poor.

My union is about to start a consultative ballot for industrial action in light of the nhs pay offer. I have had two family ‘acquaintances’ (who do not work or have immediate family that work for the nhs) complain in one breath about delayed appointments, delayed A+E waiting times, cancelled surgeries etc but then in another tell me that nurses going on strike is disgusting, lucky to have a job, NHS more secure employment etc. These are of course English Tory voters who said this

For reference, I have never and will never cross a picket line and will be voting in favour of industrial action (whatever form that takes due to emergency cover staffing etc).

When I was a few weeks qualified as a nurse I was looking after double the safe ratio of patients in my speciality. Completely unsupported, me and my (equally junior) colleagues having to consult google for solutions to our patients problem, if a medical emergency occurred (in ICU there should always be medical cover - this isn’t the case) we had to pull a buzzer, put out a page and get on with it until a medic appeared. This has not improved post pandemic.

In my current workplace (same speciality area), different country we are the only part of the hospital that is safe staffed, because of this every single day nurses and HCAs are sent to general wards, A+E and different hospitals often to be the only RN on a ward for 30 patients. There is such a crisis of care home beds, and ward beds that patients are staying in critical Care for weeks waiting on a ward bed. On the wards patients aren’t able to be washed each day as there might only be 1-3 staff members for 30-40 patients, meds rounds take 4 hours and ultimately patients who are sick go unnoticed until they are peri arrest. Nurses from day shift often have to stay on to night shift as there is no night shift nurse available.

I have only had negatives from the general public - it’s our fault for having degrees and being too posh to wash, bring the matrons back, etc etc. our colleagues who trained in the 80s and 90s pre degree say it is the worst it has ever been for safety and staffing. Racism and xenophobia towards our brilliant overseas colleagues is rife when they keep the NHS clinging on by a shoestring.

Four and a half years ago I was a first year student nurse and times were hard for the NHS, it has only got worse and worse for my patients since then. For the sake of my patients I will take industrial action.

However, it is so concerning how anti union, anti public sector and pro Tory the English public seem to have become? The decisions and government of Westminster negatively affect every nhs patient and worker in the UK. Just look at the widespread abuse, disdain and disgust directed at the RMT workers recently. I fear the same or worse for NHS workers.

So, is this NHS worker wrong for not enjoying being told to be grateful to work for the NHS? Is there any future for the public sector of the UK?

I apologise if I seem to have generalised England but I am English and from a northern Tory heartland. An area completely brainwashed.

I've worked in NHS for over 35 years and qualified as RGN in '90. I also have a Masters degree and have a qualification in teaching and assessing
Since 2007 I've been a top band 6 specialist nurse in a very niche area of expertise in research and although I love my job and my colleagues I am extremely frustrated by senior management and their lack of understanding as to what my day to day job actually involves as none of them are health care professionals by training! They see patients as recruitment targets to be met
I can't progress any further in my role without moving into management, which is not what I went into nursing for...I'd love to have been a nurse consultant or some similar clinical job but there are simply no such posts for nurses in my rural area ( and there are no nearby hospitals I could travel to)
I'm retiring in a couple of years and tbh it can't come soon enough....
several of my dd friends have recently qualified as nurses in the last 2 years and are already experiencing burnout and compassion fatigue from working throughout the pandemic with little support from their University
As an aside, my dh trained as a Dr in the 80's and was a junior when 100+ hrs/week were still allowed ( he was a junior on a cardiothoracic surgical ward working a 1:2 rota- working from 8am on a Friday until 6 pm on a Monday with practically no sleep and would come home almost hallucinating )
He reached consultant status but became unwell and had to completely rethink his career and so retrained as a Barrister!.....even as a junior lawyer his workload and stress levels were no way near those of when he was a jnr Dr....he's now able to work from home and plans to do so for many more years as he enjoys being able to combine his medical knowledge with the law
My dsis was a full time GP in a rural practice and would work 1 weekend in 3 and her dd and ds are both Drs (1 a ITU consultant and 1 a GP)
I am upset at how the health service has been left to decline over the decades by lack of investment ( in both people and buildings) by successive governments , while its obvious that some investors/stakeholders have creamed off profits for their own benefit ( ie the PPE debacle during the pandemic)

Topgub I'm not sure I'd use mumsnet as a barometer for support for the nhs.

And what are we meant to use as "a barometer for support by the NHS*?

A referendum would be about the only independent "barometer" there is, but continually dismissing people's very genuine complaints and concerns seems to be all thats available in this particular democracy.

@AllTheDancers

General public opinion and even politicians seem very in favour of the nhs.

Accepting its the system we have and trying to improve it isn't dismissing very genuine complaints.

I do think we need to take all negative experiences in perspective of the system as a whole too

Topgub General public opinion and even politicians seem very in favour of the nhs.

Which barometer are you using for that sweeping statement?

@AllTheDancers

Personal experience plus this survey from 2017 showed the vast majority were in favour of the nhs as it is and would pay more tax to fund it.

www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/what-does-public-think-about-nhs

I've not seen any mps or political parties openly campaign to change the system?

Lua Dipa in response to your point. I was writing in response to the 'fixation' that Hellebores has on this. I personally have been a nurse for nearly 40 years and have managed to figure out what and when to call people when necessary without any complaints or issues. Hellebores is the lady who is writing about her issues when she is called love dear or whatever, traversing into female equality issues on how women are treated in the nhs. I don't really think I disagree with any of your other points.

I’m currently in hospital. Came in on Friday in an ambulance, was assessed & operated on all in the space of 24hrs. Staff on the ward here have been amazing, regular obs carried out, respond so quickly to requests for help/pain medication. I honestly couldn’t fault anything about the care I’ve received. Not only do they do their job well, they seem happy and genuinely caring so I’m just amazed really. I think the NHS is bloody brilliant, they’ve saved my life twice & done it with a smile both times. Nothing to complain about here.

The best thing this country has is it’s NHS & yet so many people seem to love putting them down at every opportunity. We don’t realise how privileged we are. Well some of us do…………….they’re great

This is how my local healthcare NHS trust treated an experienced nurse, who also happened to be female. If you think that being female and being ignored even if you are qualified isn't a thing, then have a look at the records on medical negligence and then ask for them to broken down by sex/gender. Its part of a culture within the NHS.

www.irwinmitchell.com/news-and-insights/newsandmedia/2020/december/former-nurse-suffers-three-month-delay-in-diagnosing-infected-knee-replacement

Actually, I'd rather die than ever attend my local hospital ever again.

Wow. It’s people who make inflammatory comments like this that really boil my piss. And call into disrepute all the genuinely good and compassionate levels of care that millions receive in hospitals over the country every day.

The NHS may be top-heavy & overdue a shake-up on an organisational level but I honestly couldn’t fault the care I’ve received from frontline Dr’s & nurses, each time I’ve needed help. These types of throwaway comments certainly don’t represent my experiences with NHS care

I just had a couple of appointments and I think these threads stuck in my mind as it was easy, accessible and really nice HCP

In fact I’ve had good experiences with NHS, and only used private once in a couple of decades despite paying

I've just heard this afternoon two friends who have been waiting for elective surgery here in n Wales are being fast tracked through a spire hospital in England. Another friend on the list pre covid went private13.4k for a new hip. Health board phoned last week to offer her a date. Things are being shaken up a bit

Obviously people are more affected by and are much more likely to remember poor care than they are good care.

Which is understandable but a shame.

Its also a shame that people pretend that poor care and poor management os unique to the NHS/ PS. Its not.

I'm not sure who this is directed at.... but I'll reply anyway. I haven't really responded regarding the inequality issue because it is a whole other issue within the nhs and honestly would need 10 threads and would be a divergence on the original topic. I take Hellebores point on inequality it is everywhere in and out of the nhs. i have done my best for equality over the years but the more you say your piece the less you're listened to, so I'm hanging up my nursing boots in a few months , tired, fed up, but really exasperated for the nurses that will follow me. A friends aunt said to me before i started my training , 'youll be a glorified ass wiper'. Sadly we are still perceived, as one poster so quaintly put it 'median workers, median job so median wages'. So demoralising ....but hey.. I tried. I honestly wouldn't tell any relative of mine to be a nurse sad to say, but for all the decriers out there I'd lay good money they'd change their tune if they were to become a nurse and had to do what we are expected to do with what we are given.

Totly agree with the op.

@Windypants21 - so true.

Solidarity to all working people who take the brave decision to go on strike.

@Louise0701

What are you talking about?

The only point I made was that one of my parents earns almost double a GP salary as a solicitor. I can categorically tell you that for both of my parents finance is no problem.

Have you mistaken me for someone else? Maybe read properly before tagging people. The audacity.

I came on to the thread to share a story of one of my patients.

They had a private hip replacement, in a private hospital. The operation seemingly went okay, 3 hours post op the patient complained of chest tightness and SOB. Sent to bed in the private hospital. 1 hour later they had a cardiac arrest (caused by a thrombus due to the operation - a very rare side effect). They were resuscitated for hours in the private hospital and transferred to my NHS hospital for ICU care. The private hospital was unable to provide CRRT, unable to initiate active cooling / thermoregulation, the private hospital missed key signs of a MI, unable to anticoagulate - just a few things of many. Had they been operated on in an NHS hospital they could’ve had all of these treatments promptly

All you tories looking up to private healthcare - I hope the NHS is there to pick up the pieces as usual.

Tired nurse, that's awful and very similar to what my sister in law is going through.

She had a knee replacement at a private hospital at the end of March, had no blood thinners of any kind after the op and was never made to get up and about the entire 4 days she was there. She was home 4 hours and had a massive stroke. She was treated at an NHS hospital and is now in an NHS rehab centre learning to walk again. Her life has changed forever, she's only 50.

In case I didn’t make it clear this patient died a

sorry to hear about your sister in law. I hope she is well supported in her recovery and rehab xx

private healthcare in this country isn’t fit for purpose yet idolised by many

The private sector in the UK is extremely limited due to the existence of the NHS. It is not because of the NHS that they were able to treat her - the NHS simply has a state sanctioned monopoly on healthcare and facilities in this country. Non-NHS systems work perfectly well in many countries of the world, including most western European countries.

But yes, tough if you don't want to put up with the 2 year NHS wait and are willing to spend your life savings on private surgery, if a complication develops, you will need the NHS to fix it because private hospitals are so limited here. But since you have paid your tax to provide the NHS in the first place, why not?

The question that should be asked is why was the patient not given their hip replacement in the NHS hospital in the first place?

@AllTheDancers

Because the nhs is a free at point of use service that is massively over used and under funded?

And that was before the mismanagement of the pandemic

I've just had a hip replacement privately. I'd have been waiting at least two years for it on the NHS (partly as I'm a younger patient). It's not life threatening but living in severe pain for that time would have been tough.

I picked my surgeon and had the surgery 6 weeks later. It wasn't cheap and cost my insurers nearly £20k, including the physio. I had to get up for my first physio session the same day, blood thinning injections, compression socks for a month, blood thinning tablets for a month. Having my own room also meant I was unlikely to get covid or illnesses from other patients and made it easier to sleep.

My consultant visited every day I was in hospital, my anesthetist for two days and there was an excellent nurse/doctor to patient ratio. Appreciate that others had a different experience but it's not generally the case that private hospitals are fast and loose with patient safety.

This thread is so depressing but I fully agree. I'm a junior doctor and really feeling the burnout at the moment. The BMA will also be balloting for industrial action early next year for pay restoration and I am in full support of this (and fully support other professionals striking!)
I think a huge issue is that the public think they own us - getting comments like 'I pay your wages' (by that logic I also pay my own wages) and expecting constant availability. I've had situations like patients wanting to see 'the doctor' when I'm on call overnight covering hundreds of patients because they want to complain to me for half an hour that they don't like the food. They expect us to be available at all times and the sad truth is we are far too stretched and paid nowhere near enough.
I find there is a lot of hostility from other AHPs toward junior docs too - I think partly because of our nomadic nature. We are forced to rotate jobs/hospitals every 4-6 months so we are never permanent staff. I think people overlook how stressful and lonely that can be, we often get pulled away to different parts of the country away from support networks and there's no sense of belonging, it's very 'us and them'. There's also a very outdated perception that doctors are arrogant - I've definitely met a select few who are but I've also met other AHPs who have been difficult so it's not exclusive. I think most of us are fairly insecure and people pleasers but get shat on a lot because of this stereotype. This is definitely not all AHPs - some are lovely and welcoming.
Another issue is lack of understanding of our pay - both from the public and AHPs. I've asked patients and AHPs how much they actually think I earn when I've had comments about doctors being overpaid etc. Most genuinely think juniors are on 60-70k and were shocked when I told them a full time FY1 salary is 29k. Current juniors are also currently graduating with around 70-80k of student debt. Our pay has been eroded by 22-30% over the last 10-15 years and that's why we want to strike for pay restoration. It's being portrayed in the media as 'lazy GPs asking for a pay rise' but that's the opposite of the truth. I won't comment on the lazy GP argument, too long to get into but very far from correct. It's not GPs striking, it's junior doctors, who are pretty much exclusively hospital-based. It's not a pay rise, it's pay restoration as we have lost so much to inflation. It's a very unique situation in that most other jobs do not have a nationally standardised pay structure, I don't think there are many other jobs with the same salary now as 2009. We also can't really leave to find another job unless we want to quit our training and never reach consultant level or move abroad. I feel really exhausted with the whole thing, IA is a tool rather than a goal but the fact something is happening is the only thing keeping me going right now. I'm not sure it'll work, I think we're doomed under the tory government but we have to try.
Huge sympathy to others on this thread with similar issues too, I know how draining it all is and I hope things get better for all of us