Sick of the push for Scottish independence

[ThisKiltIsMadeForWalking]

I keep seeing on the news that Nicola Sturgeon is pushing for another referendum and I just don’t get it. If she doesn’t get the answer she wants this time can she push for another in a few years? I just find it disgusting that half the country are struggling badly for things like food/electricity/petrol and she wants to spend millions pushing for something that she wants, that the majority voted against a few years ago? Am I missing something?

I am all for another referendum. Let's see how Scotland votes this time. As I said last time around, if Scotland are such a millstone round the rest of the UK's neck, then there'll be no problem letting go....Will there?

if Scotland are such a millstone round the rest of the UK's neck, then there'll be no problem letting go....Will there?

there would because although SNP wants ‘independence’ they don’t want their own currency (surprise surprise) and want to keep pound Sterling. So if they lurch into financial crisis, they will devalue our currency and we will be forced to bail them out (I think that’s why they’re doing it)

@Wouldloveanother That is a fair point. But on balance I think an independent Scotland will be at its worst, the same as England economically, but at best much better. Probably in reality somewhere in between.
Some Scottish industries have been destroyed by Brexit. Joining other trade alliances can help restart them or give declining industries a boost.

I know from talking to people that many anti-independence people do not understand the Scottish economy. They think it is all tourism, haggis and whisky. So many have little understanding of just how much harm Brexit has caused and will continue to do so.

Er - what do you mean we are 'anglicised socially' ?

Antelope it just reads like the argument ‘for’ Brexit
about fantasy trade deals
and we know how that ended!
can you be more specific about how Scotland would make its money? And how it would be spent? Because that was very very vague

England does not want Scotland to go because it is strategically important and because of energy supplies.
Far too much is made of currency as it is a culture war issue that the uninformed can froth about.

But surely a country gagging for independence with a fantastic new economy to look forward to would want its own currency antelope? If not why not? Why keep our tired old Sterling and let us hold you back?

@AchatAVendre your comment astounds me. The poster posted something in response to my comment that gave a false impression.

You must be affy easy astoundit then.

I also remember a full post a few weeks ago of being called a nationalist, a braveheart and a tartan supporter by anti-independence types.

Really? I don't remember that, and possibly the rest of the world doesn't either although I personally don't use those phrases.

You never once said anything about all the very personal insults aimed at me or others who support Scottish independence.

Probably because I'm more interested in the entire future of the country and the issue at hand than getting involved in peoples' disputes. I'm a bit wary of personalisation of a national debate.

I particularly object to being called a nationalist. Unlike most of these threads I have read lots on the subject. The anti-independence types often lie and make things up. The very pro-independence types often exaggerate and sometimes lie.

OK. Well at least you didn't get told that your hard work in researching and writing your own bloody thesis was the product of "googling" and that you had "insulted" people for pointing out that unicameral is spelt unicameral!

I am actually in the middle. I am not interested in independence or anti-independence just because or as an article of faith. I am pro-independence because, on balance, it is now better for the economy of Scotland and its population.

I am extremely uncomfortable at some of the legislation that interferes with civil liberties that is coming out of Holyrood. I've previously pointed out that its the product of a unicameral legislature with few checks and balances.

Economically, I don't believe that a tiny country on the edge of Europe with no land borders with anywhere other than England would do well. Even the lessons from the past teach us that. Scotland wasn't particularly keen on trade with the Hanseatic League and introduced a lot of new taxes and tarriffs to Shetland and Orkney which have been in an economic downturn ever since. Recent legislation indicates that that tendency to control and cream off the profits while promising its for the benefit of Scotland remains the same. No doubt I'll now be criticised for living in the past or suchlike!

I don't actually believe that the SNP is even pro-EU, because they keep promoting legislation that is anti-EU law, or have a history of objecting to its main provisions e.g. the extension of FOI rights, EU competition law, etc.. I think what they are interested in is remaining in power. I hope they don't drag 5 million people down with them in pursuit of that goal.

Any country in which more than 30% or so are pro-independence is simply unsustainable long term. For Scotland it’s clearly not a question of if rather than when. Surely better to take the leap sooner rather than drag it out over years - the same outcome is coming it’s simply a matter of when.

If we had some top, top minds in government, a newly drawn totally revised version of the Union for the 21st century and beyond may have been salvageable (probably only pre Brexit). But clearly not with BloJo and his poundshop UKIP party in power. They’d sell their own grandmothers down the river for a couple of government perks, never mind Scotland and Norther Ireland.

antelopvalley I know from talking to people that many anti-independence people do not understand the Scottish economy. They think it is all tourism, haggis and whisky. So many have little understanding of just how much harm Brexit has caused and will continue to do so.

Given that the tourist industry in places with a short tourist season and low margins is currently being decimated by the decision that all holiday accommodation in Scotland must be licensed (along with the many expensive requirements that go along with that) and that the local authority seem intent on "cracking down on tourism" in Edinburgh, it would appear that those in power do not understand it all that well either.

All that licensing is also a breach of EU competition law because it indirectly restricts access to the market in favour of the big players already established...

Antelopevalley, you say that people who don't understand the Scottish economy think it's all about tourism, haggis and whisky. The problem is, all the pro independence papers use tourism, haggis (well, food in general) and whisky as some of the main tenets of the Scottish export market.

@Wouldloveanother I am not talking about individual trade deals but about joining trade alliances. Countries do not do well alone on trade deals as the UK has found. The UK keeps trying to join trade alliances but not getting anywhere because at heart Ministers know they need to. But the UK has made so many enemies with Brexit and how it has dealt with it, not least Ireland and Biden in the US as a big Ireland supporter.
The UK will eventually be allowed to join some trade alliances. They will not be kept out forever, but the longer it goes on, the more economic the negative impact. Scotland does not have the same impediments to joining various trade alliances and may even be welcomed as a snub to the UK.
Biggest exports from Scotland are:
(1) Petroleum products & related materials; (2) Power generating machinery & equipment; (3) Chemicals and related products.

Interesting to be told independence is unwise based on the Hanseatic League in the 13th to 15th century.

@antelopevalley what trade alliances though? With who? You can’t just say ‘trade alliances’
and can you answer about wanting to keep pound Sterling?

The Scottish government do not have the legal powers to borrow so cannot get into debt. They manage their budget well given cuts to the allocation of money across the whole of the UK.

if you are saying they do not prioritise spending on the things you believe they ought to that’s very different to not balancing the books.

This entire debate needs honesty and transparency from all sides not spin and bullshit rhetoric. Both Yes organisations and No organisations are bloody awful with their lies and bullshit. The people need transparency.

Licensing air bnbs and the like is not in conflict with EU law as similar schemes already operate in some EU countries.

I think the balance has now tipped for a yes vote and the inevitable disruption is now worth it

I think you're right with the first part of your comment, but is the disuption worth it? We've already got Brexit, covid and the war in Ukraine, and now Nicola wants to add something else? This is going to be "another it will be ok in 50 years". When we had the Brexit referendum, I said I didn't want disruption, I live now. I don't care if it will be better in 50 years (it won't). Same goes for dissolving the Union which is more than just taking Scotland out of the UK. The UK ceases to exist without Scotland in it.

It seems very clear to me which way the referendum will go this time. I understand why but be careful what you wish for.

This entire debate needs honesty and transparency from all sides not spin and bullshit rhetoric. Both Yes organisations and No organisations are bloody awful with their lies and bullshit. The people need transparency

It won't happen. Anyway, people vote with their hearts not their heads. We saw that with the Brexit referendum. People are not rational.

I’m worried we will lose Scotland and Northern Ireland, I cannot blame you for wanting to get rid of the shit show of westminster. I just hope the smooth is better than the rough for sticking with the U.K.

If we had had a government which didn't treat Scotland and NI with contempt (along with Remain voters in England and Wales) we might not be in this situation.

That said, Nicola S was never going to let go of the holy grail of independence. The Brexit vote and electing Boris was a massive gift to her though.

On the plus side, it's good news for lawyers. Law and politics students better specialise in constitutional law - there will be a lot of it to advise on!

If England had a referendum for Scottish independence, "yes" would win in a landslide.

But England won't, so who cares?

YANBU today's news is literally enough to make me seriously think about moving back south of the border!

Its not the licensing thats the problem. Its the scope of it and the individual requirements which vary from local authority to local authority which operate as an indirect barrier to trade to those outwith the the local area and/or Scotland. It also breaches a couple of EU Fundamental Rights, particularly Kamino/TRTOAH and proportionality of punishment.

Thats not to say it couldn't be rewritten. Its the lack of awareness that its done in contravention of EU law and the arguing back that its not that is worrying.

So is the tendency to require that work in HMOs in certain local authorities be carried out by certain, very limited "approved contractors". You cannot place those sort of restrictions on the private sector without it being anti-competitive. Thats also the case for statutory notice system.

I don't think anyone in the SNP really understands EU competition law. The Advocate-General of the CJEU did advise that minimum alcohol pricing transgressed EU law and that taxation was the better solution - fortunately, Brexit came along and solved that issue for the SG.

Then theres the Hate Crime legislation and the EU Charter too. Thankfully the CJEU struck down Named Persons - seriously, did no-one in the Scottish Government actually check that one for EU law compatibility?