Sick of the push for Scottish independence

[ThisKiltIsMadeForWalking]

I keep seeing on the news that Nicola Sturgeon is pushing for another referendum and I just don’t get it. If she doesn’t get the answer she wants this time can she push for another in a few years? I just find it disgusting that half the country are struggling badly for things like food/electricity/petrol and she wants to spend millions pushing for something that she wants, that the majority voted against a few years ago? Am I missing something?

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/05/27/nicola-sturgeon-faces-begging-whitehall-extra-funds-35bn-overspend/

I think the one thing we can agree on is that there is a lot of false data!

Oh and www.heraldscotland.com/news/18401163.scottish-government-asks-westminster-universities-bailed/

I don’t think independence is a bad idea per se but the SNP seem like kids in a sweet shop

Yes they don't fancy running a referendum against a potential labour govt, think that's clearly part of the strategy.

And yes, Nicola will need more UK funds for overspending and more tax rises:

ifs.org.uk/publications/16076

I honestly fear for Scotland if people vote for this. She is absolutely determined to erode women’s rights and is completely captured by the left lobby. I think she’s terrifying. Far, far worse than the Tories.

Given that I'm an expert in EU law with a masters degree in it, and received encouragement from my employer to participate in the debate last time as there were concerns that it was so uninformed, it was interesting to be told by an independence supporter the last time that the links answering a question that I provided were from google and that I didn't know what I was talking about. Independence supporters love to rubbish anyone who can discuss actual facts with them because they can't produce a coherent argument. Or they go down the arguing about every minor point to the nth degree to confuse and prevaricate.

Theres a dichotomy between not wanting to inform SNP stooges of the real nuance of the debate and allowing them to keep the general population as ignorant in order to pull the wool over their eyes, particularly with regards to fake promise of near guaranteed EU membership.

The last White Paper contained some glaring errors and fiction and the independence debate really needs to be clearer on the key issues. An independent Scotland would be outwith both the UK and the EU and theres never been any coherent commitment to sign up to the ECHR (the White Paper promised a "Scottish version"). Its all far too vague to base a fair vote around because many people simply believe what the SNP tell them with regards to EU membership and skirt over the problems regarding the economy and taxation. The lack of detail is quite frankly ridiculous and the SNP should be held fully to account for not providing detailed plans at this stage of the debate (instead we get argument and insults or claims of victimisation).

tbh I probably stand to gain slightly more from independence as I will be able to write and speak about it more than I am currently doing should it happen, and I've already taken steps to mitigate against the economic downturn that would inevitably occur in an independent Scotland. That said, I've never heard so many business people saying they are sick to the back teeth of independence talk or saying they want to leave the country because of the uncertainty.

Remember too that the SNP are incredibly active online and disproportionately so given their actual support base. Many people do not have the luxury of posting political stuff online or indeed the time.

@Changedmynamefor Those are articles from a right-wing paper saying Nicola will have to ask for bailouts or is asking for more funding. There is nothing saying more money was given.
The first article is just a "prediction" that the SNP will need bailouts.

It is this nonsense I am sick of. I have read lots of proper research, but the anti-independence lot nearly all just throw lots of unsubstantiated nonsense.

The SNP were given more money during the pandemic. The call for more money for universities was after Brexit and worries about the impact Brexit would have. Everyone was calling for more money then as Brexit is a bloody disaster and is creating black financial holes.
To claim this means SNP can not balance its budgets is disingenuous of the worst kind. I am totally sick of this constant drip of rubbish from lots of anti-independence types
It is like the first referendum when there were just constant lies and half-truths.

fullfact.org/economy/scotland-economy/

found this cos I like facts from unbiased sources
thay says Scotland’s deficit is 3 times that of the rest of the U.K. as proportion of GDP

Wont happen. If you care to wander over to the "Wings Over Scotland" website you will find a number of articles outlining the number of promised indyref2 from sturgeon. Average once every 18 months since 2015. This is just a carrot she dangles to keep the faithful onboard.

If you think it is far far worse than the Tories then you either do not live in Scotland or are not paying attention.
Scotland provides far more support to mothers, to people in poverty, and to children than the Tories do in England.
If you do not care about poor people, you might prefer the Tories though.

Seriously? After they have seen the shit show that was the UK leaving the EU, you really think that they will do that to themselves?

At what cost though? I think that’s a good thing to do but if they spend spend spend and the economy implodes putting more people in poverty then what’s the point? There’s a balance to be struck

Do you understand what you have linked to? Do you understand that whether there is a deficit is not the same as the budget given to the devolved government to manage? I suspect not.

I do understand that yes
but it’s an indicator of how well finances are managed and the SNP seems to manage them very badly
which concerns me as they will try to take pound Sterling with them so then we are forced to bail them out again to stop our currency devaluing
if they want to make a new currency and take responsibility for it then fine, but something tells me they won’t..

Actually, it does. There is nothing to stop the Scottish government consulting on the issue if it wishes. Whether the UK government has to pay any attention to the result is another matter, but let's face it, if the answer was "Yes" it's not like they could just ignore it.

What about women who aren't mothers, or who aren't in poverty?

Although the Full Fact website is interesting.

"The report, commissioned by the Scottish National Party, actually says that public spending could continue to grow. This does depend on sufficient growth in the economy after independence."

"https://fullfact.org/economy/would-independent-scotland-have-keep-pound-cut-public-spending/"

My view - the report is a bit too optimistic. Public spending can continue to be roughly what it is though.

"Incorrect, a number of European countries have higher income tax rates than Scotland." Boris Johnson claimed Scotland has the highest taxes in Europe.

fullfact.org/economy/scotland-doesnt-have-highest-taxes-europe/

Unfortunately, a lot of the other articles about Scotland are five or more years older.

When the UK was in the EU it made economic sense for Scotland not to be independent. Scotland benefitted from EU membership, and the costs of leaving the EU and reapplying, and leaving the union with England, were too great. Brexit changed this.

Why does the independence supporter argument always have to be based on denigrating the opposition?

Its always do you understand/have you read/have you researched/can you provide when its quite clear that the person this is being asked of is much more informed than the person asking the endless questions.

I do have a sort of fantasy vision in my idle moments of Sturgeon and her ilk being granted an interview with the EU Commission or Council and asking them do you understand or directing them to read Wings over Scotland

@AchatAVendre The Tories are better for the rich. So yes if you are rich, the Tories provide better policies for you personally than the SNP.

Me too OP. The SNP has been in power for a very long time now and the NHS is failing, educational standards are falling, transport is a mess. Women's rights are eroded. They are attacking local democracy by centralising social care under the guise of the National Care Service. And the approach to Covid was autocratic and didn't work, - remember we were going to achieve zero covid (hollow laugh).

No doubt someone will now mention baby boxes as an example of progressive policy but frankly given that so many people who benefitted from this initiative could actually afford to buy baby items, it does seem an awful waste of money.

Why do you always use the first person when discussing this? Its somewhat narcissistic. Its not about you. Its about the future of the country and 5 million plus people.

I see you are now accusing me of being both rich and being a Tory voter. Both inaccurate, but don't break the denigrating habit of a lifetime.

What I'm interested in is what would make Scotland a better place to live in for everyone, not just mothers or women in poverty. Because it seems like a race to the bottom with just a different layer of corruption in charge.

I'd not get too bothered by it at all. I'd expect them to push for that on an on-going basis. It at the core of their reason to exist as a party. It is who they are, and I'm glad they are not pretending to be something else.

Having said that, as a conservative, the economic impact of Brexit, and the reputational damage caused by BJ just makes thing so much harder for sanity to prevail.

The reality is that Scotland is thoroughly assimilated economically and anglicized socially. Originally from the SW and happily back there now, I felt more at home living in Glasgow than I did in Newcastle. There are also energy related issues that mean Scotland will never get independence, looking to the future it's strategically (potentially) much too valuable.

@AchatAVendre your comment astounds me. The poster posted something in response to my comment that gave a false impression.
I also remember a full post a few weeks ago of being called a nationalist, a braveheart and a tartan supporter by anti-independence types.
You never once said anything about all the very personal insults aimed at me or others who support Scottish independence.

I particularly object to being called a nationalist. Unlike most of these threads I have read lots on the subject. The anti-independence types often lie and make things up. The very pro-independence types often exaggerate and sometimes lie.
I am actually in the middle. I am not interested in independence or anti-independence just because or as an article of faith. I am pro-independence because, on balance, it is now better for the economy of Scotland and its population.
I think the UK is now entering a slow decline. Living standards will continue to fall and the economy will continue to contract. The actions of the government are to protect the wealth of the richest, but to do nothing to improve the economy as a whole. I expect some tinkering around the edges, but there will be no political will to do anything else as the clear priority is protecting the richest.
I do not want to live in a country that is simply declining year by year. I am far more ambitious than to submit to managed decline.

That’s why you don’t want a Tory government though Antelope. Not why independent Scotland would be better.

@AchatAVendre I made the mistake of answering your questions. You claim the SNP are worse for women than the Tories. I answer and you ask why I only go on about one group of people.
I won't make the mistake of answering any questions you ask again.