Sick of the push for Scottish independence

[ThisKiltIsMadeForWalking]

I keep seeing on the news that Nicola Sturgeon is pushing for another referendum and I just don’t get it. If she doesn’t get the answer she wants this time can she push for another in a few years? I just find it disgusting that half the country are struggling badly for things like food/electricity/petrol and she wants to spend millions pushing for something that she wants, that the majority voted against a few years ago? Am I missing something?

I’m not sure you can conflate adhering to results of an opinion poll and respecting the will of the electorate. Polls are snapshots in time - there’s no other area where we would expect politicians to pack up their bags and go home just because the polls indicate they will not succeed. The whole point of politics in a democracy is to persuade people.

Its also really weird you’d expect a nationalist to just abandon nationalism because they lost a referendum nearly a decade ago.

We hold elections at least every five years and often more frequently. We don’t expect the losers to just say ‘yeah we were wrong’ in order to ‘respect the electorate’. They try again. They might try different campaigning or persuasion. They might even tweak their policies but they don’t just shut up shop because there was an election that they lost once.

People voted against independence nearly a decade before the proposed referendum in 2023. If people can change their minds about electing a government after five years, why should they not be allowed to change their minds about constitutional change after 10 years? Especially when the SNP sought a mandate in 2021 to push a second referendum and won that mandate from the public.

There's several issues here - adhering to the results of an opinion poll and respecting the will of the electorate, well, yes, polls are snapshots. But we had a referendum in 2014, and the SNP have never really respected the result of that vote.

As to comparing referenda with elections, we expect regular elections as part of the democratic process. A referendum, especially on such a big issue, is destabilising.

As has been pointed out before, pro union parties got more votes than pro independence parties - they're obviously spread over 3 parties rather than the one pro independence party (with help from the greens)

I’m not sure what you mean by respecting the 2014 result? The only way to respect that result is by Scotland remaining in the UK unless and until it votes otherwise. That is precisely what has happened so the result has been respected.

If you mean the SNP should have given up on independence because a one off vote was lost, that’s nonsense and isn’t what democracy is about. Campaigners don’t give up on their beliefs because they lose a vote - losing just means those beliefs can’t be put into practice. That’s not disrespecting a vote - otherwise no one would ever be able to democratically disagree with an electoral outcome.

The fact remains that the SNP sought and won a mandate for a second referendum in 2021. They don’t get to use that result to bring about independence (since as you say, they fell - just - short of 50% of the vote). But they do get to pursue what was in their manifesto because that’s how electing governments work.

Independence by attrition then - just keep having referenda until they get the desired result, wearing people down, causing division.

I'd have far more truck with this if the SNP had used the interim to show the population what a successful independent Scotland could look like, attracted business, raised educational standards, sorted land reform. They haven't. What they've done is tinker round the edges, haven't used their full tax raising powers (because they realise the populace wouldn't embrace even higher taxes, despite the continual banging on about how we're more like a Scandinavian socialist country - which we're not). They've wasted so much time and effort on policies they were warned were a bad idea, like named person, self ID etc.

Their actions give me no confidence that they have a clue what they're talking about over independence.

For all the rhetoric around the SNP being "obsessed" by independence or getting it by attrition, the fact is that the SNP keep winning elections in Scotland.

Like it or not, they are by far the most popular political party in Scotland having consistently ran on a manifesto which has independence at it's heart. If you have any respect for democracy you have to accept this is what the electorate want.

Why is it ok to tell people to accept what the electorate want in respect of the SNP, but not in respect of the UK Govt and Brexit? I didn't vote for a Conservative govt, Brexit or the SNP, but I have to live with them all.

Remain lost and those of us who voted to stay had to say ok, No won in Scotland shouldn’t it be the same

They are not the party of unionists in northern ireland thanks

NS keeps asking Scotland to vote till she gets the vote she believes in, it’s not exactly storming the capitol building to get the result you want like Trump, but it’s the same premise. I didn’t like the result of the election so I’ll just keep going till I get the result I want!

The fact is the SNP have failed in every area they are responsible for, Glasgow council is SNP run and I think they must hate the city so bad are so many of their decisions. The airport has been run down that Edinburgh ( which was a much smaller airport) is now the biggest airport, leaving Glasgow well behind.
The streets are filthy, no grass verges are being cut so grass is so high making it look neglected and dangerous at times for motorists, parking is expensive in the town centre meaning shops are closing, they hate cars so much it’s virtually impossible to drive anywhere near a major train or bus station in order to pick disabled passengers up, utter madness!

Totally agree with you op it was time to regroup and rebuild after a pandemic but no instead with their usual misjudgement the focus is placed on Independance.
Also another separate issue why have a Green Party at all in Scotland, they seem to have totally aligned themselves with the SNP and separatism, what’s that got to do with Green issues,?
they are just mouthpieces for NS now.

I think they hate employed people too. We can't all work from home. Road charging is being introduced soon (to appease the greens) so you will have to pay £2 a day (or whatever they put it up to) to drive into Edinburgh, Glasgow or Aberdeen. The public transport options are terrible compared to other European countries. Who wants to spend hours per day stuck on a stinking bus or drive miles out of your way to get a (very expensive and unreliable) train after making sure you've paid for parking?

Agree they hate working people, people just want to go to work why make it so hard for them!
But in another, ahem, brilliant idea they have put bike lanes all over the city, once traffic flowed freely on nearby busy roads are now queuing in long lines using more petrol and spewing more fumes while I have yet to see one solitary bicycle! Utter madness again to appease the greens yet making zero environmental difference. Greenwashing as it’s finest.

It’s worth remembering that the UK has already signed up to the principle that the interval of border polls in Northern Ireland shouldn’t be less than seven years in the Good Friday Agreement.

So if seven years+ would be acceptable interval for Northern Ireland to have a second vote on its constitutional position, why is 9 years an unacceptable interval for Scotland to do the same?

I think there is more chance of Scotland voting for independence in the early 2030s if there is not another referendum in 2023. By then it will be the next generation so to speak, and no resentment at being asked the question yet again I would hope.

The comments about the failures of the SNP as the Scottish government ring true, though nowhere near as bad as the Westminster government.

They 'win' elections because 45% of the electorate vote for nationalist parties and 55% vote for unionist parties.

Note the similarity between those supporting Yes (45%) and those supporting No (55%).

That gives them the most seats in Holyrood but it does not mean that the electorate 'want' independence. 45% of the vote does not equal the electorate wanting independence.

I don’t particularly want independence though whatever happens, I think the UK is in a mess. I absolutely do NOT want the SNP however, they are a bunch of incompetents.

@ItchyBit I have commented on occasions that the best argument against Scottish independence is the SNP. We may agree on this.

I’ve only got 2 good words to say about them - Joanna Cherry. Other than that, it’s head in hands level of dreadfulness.

And I have a 16 year old DC who cannot believe that they and their peers are deemed as a group to be mature and with enough life experience to vote.

I was at uni at 17 (and I knew that I knew sod all) - these are babies!

If your 17-year-old is like a baby, you have done something wrong.

I was referring to me - at 17 I was idealistic and impetuous. I was at uni so supposedly an adult. 16 - the average 16 years old - had no job, no kids, doesn’t pay rent or mortgage, and generally had mum and dad to look after them.

MY 17 year old is mature in a lot of ways - but naive in others because he hasn’t got the life experience.

17-year-olds can be naive. And elderly retired people who are in their house all the time can be out of touch. And rich people can have no clue how others live.
But we don't test for reasoning ability when we give someone the vote or even life experience. We just say you are an adult, away you go.

And being honest, I was less naive at 17 years old than plenty of mid-twenty-year-olds I have met, or even older. It depends very much on your life.

Agree with this.

Why should the young not get a vote on something which affects their future?

As parents it's our job to guide them - I'll be supporting my DC to make the choice that they feel is right for them by talking about the pros & cons and pointing them in the direction of non-biased information if I can find any in the same way I have for any other vote they've taken part in.

As a 16 year old I would have voted SNP.

As a 18 year old I voted Labour. (97 election).

I voted Yes to devolution and that's one vote I would never regret

If Scotland get another vote on independence, does that mean we can have another vote on Brexit?

Seems very one sided to me - that you can just push for another vote, yet if Scotland had voted Indy last time then they wouldn’t countenance the idea of another vote as it’s too hard to go back. Yet, the pro Indy folk will never give up demanding more referendums.

Being part English, part Scottish myself, it makes me sad to think of breaking up the UK.