Sick of the push for Scottish independence

[ThisKiltIsMadeForWalking]

I keep seeing on the news that Nicola Sturgeon is pushing for another referendum and I just don’t get it. If she doesn’t get the answer she wants this time can she push for another in a few years? I just find it disgusting that half the country are struggling badly for things like food/electricity/petrol and she wants to spend millions pushing for something that she wants, that the majority voted against a few years ago? Am I missing something?

No, you've just failed again to understand the difference between Scotland's "borrowing powers" and the UK borrowing powers. The UK Supplementary Estimates guide you've referenced literally states that it is for amending the departmental spending the government has previously authorised. That should give you a clue that the "borrowing powers" of Scotland are not really borrowing powers and no different to that of DEFRA or DforE.

I'll try to explain one last time but I gather I am wasting my time with you as you are either willfully ignoring whats put in front of you or just not able to comprehend it.

The UK government have complete control over their borrowing and can borrow as much as they like/need (£187 billion last year). They can go out to a creditor and say we need an extra £187 billion this year, please deposit the money here (the NFL account).

Scotland, like other UK government departments, can then request access to said fund and borrow up to 15% of their budget per year (approximately £450m) to a maximum value of £3 billion at any one time. Scotland must also pay interest on this loan directly but also pays towards the total cost of servicing the entire UK national deficit too.

Scotland has no control over how much money is borrowed at a national level.

Scotland is unable to approach creditors themselves to request funding.

Scotland is limited by an agreement as to how much they can borrow.

Scotland is required by law to return a balanced account each year, which means any borrowing from the NFL has to be paid for from their budget (which means there's less.

Scotland's "borrowing" powers in comparison UK borrowing powers are akin those of a child asking for some more pocket money compared to their parents remortgaging their house i.e., they are not comparable and aren't actually borrowing powers at all.

You also seem to be a bit confused about the 2019 election results. The SNP recieved 45% iof the vote but won 48 of the 59 seats, which gave them a majority and with it a mandate for another referendum.

You might not like the voting system (I don't) or that viewpoint but thats the way it works. And it was the arguement used to justify holding the legally binding brexit referendum with a Tory vote share of just 36%. They can hardly now turn around and say it works like that for them but not for anyone else.

Im not sure why you're rambling about 1918 Ireland but I can randomly ramble too. Partitioning wouldn't work I'm afraid, within the decade vast swathes of England will be under severe water stress that will require access to Scotland's abundant fresh water reserves. Boris made a play for that just a few years ago and was fended off but I've no doubt it's one of the many reasons the UK government want to keep Scotland in the Union so badly (I fully expect everything I've said about borrowing to be ignored and for someone to focus on this bit and rant about how that's ridiculous).

Scotland already has a huge hole in its finances because they overcooked the income tax generated figures there simply weren't enough peoples now they are 3.5 billion down despite many in Scotland paying higher income tax.
(It's not the mega rich charged more tax BTW its 21% if over 25k)

Scotland has had many powers for substantial amount of time such as on council tax and business rates since 1999.
The reality is they make poor decisions and lead to big holes such as ferries, 3.5 billion decificit because they were determined income tax was sufficient the list is endless.

If th Scottish govt had a good track record then I would more likely be in favour but it's shite across so many things
Education, drug deaths, NHS, policing issues, ferries, financial decificit.

As for the party well given 2 treasurers resigned because of lack of transparency, it took them 6 years to condone a sexual harassment charge from one of its MPs and multiple conduct failings I don't wish this lot to organise anything

Exactly. I'm the same, I'd vote for them, but they prove time and time again they are useless. If they'd actually concentrate on running the country and not try to play games, they'd maybe have more supporters. But even previous snp supporters are turning on them now. It's a shame as they probably could do a good job, but they seem to refuse to.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory said:

"You also seem to be a bit confused about the 2019 election results. The SNP recieved 45% iof the vote but won 48 of the 59 seats, which gave them a majority and with it a mandate for another referendum."

You have willfully misunderstood the point I was making which is that Sturgeon now acknowledges it is NOT enough for the SNP to win a majority of the seats.

To win what she calls a de facto referendum in the next Westminster General Election, Sturgeon and the SNP will require 50% +1 of the total votes cast.

The closest the SNP ever came to that was 49.97% of the total votes in the 2015 General Election.

Read more carefully next time.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory said:

"You might not like the voting system (I don't) or that viewpoint but thats the way it works. And it was the arguement used to justify holding the legally binding brexit referendum with a Tory vote share of just 36%. They can hardly now turn around and say it works like that for them but not for anyone else."

I am OK with the FPTP system in Westminster GE.

As for the rest of your comment there, SNPs John Swinney corrected himself as shown in the Guardian link where he retracts his agreement on winning a majority of seats. He contradicted his leader who insists the SNP must win a majority of votes.

You can hardly blame Westminster for Sturgeon putting that condition on her party.

As the Sovereign Government of the UK, the UK Government can very well reject any SNP demand for IndyRef2. As can the Westminster Parliament which remains the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law.

Just like the SNP, Sinn Féin cannot demand a referendum in Northern Ireland simply by winning more seats in the Stormont or Westminster Elections. It would have to be a majority of all votes cast.

Like it is for the SNP.

Unless you're suggesting Scotland should get a unique exception? 🙄

@Thebestwaytoscareatory said:

"Im not sure why you're rambling about 1918 Ireland but I can randomly ramble too."

If you actually read the previous, you'd have seen the point is that what Sturgeon is now proposing is straight out of Sinn Féin’s 1918 playback. It failed then and it'll fail in 2023 for the SNP.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory said:

"Partitioning wouldn't work I'm afraid, within the decade vast swathes of England will be under severe water stress that will require access to Scotland's abundant fresh water reserves."

According to Sir James Bevan, chief executive of the Environment Agency, the predicted water stress is not inevitable and can be avoided by reducing water waste, leakage, building desalination plants and mega reservoirs.

In case you hadn't noticed, by 2050 approximately 5billion people around the world will be living in high water stressed areas.

Scotland will not be insulated from the effects of this as agriculture is the single biggest user of freshwater which is required to grow food. Economies around the world will be damaged by it as will Scotland's.

Additionally, Scotland will not be immune from water stress as Loch Ness has been observed to have dropped to its lowest water level in 2021 since five years before due to drier than usual weather. NatureScot's own research "shows that a clear increase in extreme drought risk in Scotland is likely in the imminent future. Using modelled temperature and precipitation data and a drought index, changes in extreme drought were calculated for the near future (2021-2040) in comparison to a baseline period (1981-2001). The results showed increases in both the number and length of extreme drought events in the near future."

Scotland is by no means immune from water stress and, as the world becomes warmer, droughts will increase in frequency in Scotland too.

As freshwater sources become ever more stressed globally, wars over access to water will become ever more frequent.

"The latest research on the subject does indeed show water-related violence increasing over time. Population growth and economic development are driving increasing water demand worldwide. Meanwhile, climate change is decreasing water supply and/or making rainfall increasingly erratic in many places."

• Charles Iceland, global director for water at the World Resources Institute.

The full capability of the British Army will be important in the future. This is an argument in favour of the unity of the British people.

Not one in favor of Scottish independence.

So, far from being a reason for independence for Scotland, the prediction of water scarity in England and the resulting knock-on effects of that on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is a very good argument for the British people pulling together as one.

IIRC, a majority of British food grown in the UK is grown in England which we're all dependent on. The UK is 64% self-sufficient in growing food. This means if water is scarce in England, agriculture and production of food will have serious effects on the rest of the UK.

As I said, it's an argument in favour of the people pulling together in a world that is increasingly water stressed.

The references to 1918 in Ireland are really weird.

Sinn Féin got 47% of the vote but only in the contested seats. They won 25 seats uncontested. If the voters of those 25 constituencies had been able to vote, Sinn Féin would certainly have received well over 50% of the vote.

There is no credible case that by 1918 the majority of voters on the island of Ireland were not supportive of Irish independence. Of course there was significant opposition in Ulster - but across Ireland as a whole, and especially across what would become the Irish Free State, there was clear majority support.

Its really weird to cite the 1918 election if you support the UK Government denying the Democratic will of people to secure independence. That is an example where doing so ended really pretty badly for the UK.

Why choose an October date ( if they are allowed to have this new Indy ref ?)
It's starting to get dark earlier on, the weather might not be that great etc, why not go for June or even early September?
Must be a reason, but feels odd to me unless that's how long it'll take to pass through parliament etc.

Remembering 2014, it was actually the No campaign that stated that Scotland would be dragged out the EU if they voted for Independence. And yet here we are....
It was a game changer for a lot of people. Yes, am aware that Scotland would have to apply as a separate nation to join, and would take time, but many people are happy to take the risk.

Independence isn't just about the SNP. Labour for Independence campaigned round here in 2014, and there is even a Conservative group for Independence ( although they keep under the radar as they are supposed to be for the Union).

Many people North of the Border lend their vote to the SNP to get another Independence referendum. If there is a Yes vote, I strongly suspect that there would be another election shortly afterwards and many people would go to other parties again.
If your only reason to vote No is because you don't like NS, then that's really shortsighted. If you have other reasons fair enough. I shall do my research, but certainly won't be getting my information from the Daily Express/Mail, or for that matter the majority of MSM

Pugdogmum, I'm not convinced the EU issue has changed many minds - polling figures on independence have barely moved since Brexit. I think the SNP like to bang on about it being material change, but not many seem to be that bothered tbh. If it was as important as the SNP make out you would have expected a huge swing in the polls. Hasn't happened.

I had a look at a couple of polls to see what they said. Very small sample sizes and commissioned by newspapers such as the Times and the Herald, and YouGov.
Not necessarily restricted to Scottish votes as it doesn't ask if you actually live in Scotland. The Times and Herald are subscription newspapers so wouldn't generally Independence supporters wouldn't subscribe due to a lot of anti Independence stuff for years.

I personally have never been asked if I support Independence. Neither have my friends and family.

The only sure poll will be the one next year.

There have been dozens of polls since 2016 by all sorts of pollsters including those commissioned by the SNP.

Pugdogmum Many people North of the Border lend their vote to the SNP to get another Independence referendum. If there is a Yes vote, I strongly suspect that there would be another election shortly afterwards and many people would go to other parties again.

I have no idea whether you're an SNP supporter or not, but this type of "downsplaining" is very typical of what they do. SNP supporters are clearly aware that Sturgeon isn't particularly popular outside the party faithful so they like to point out (in a way similar to heralding a miraculous discovery that no-one else had ever thought of) that politics might change in an independent Scotland. In a democracy, you don't have to vote for the SNP. You can vote for other parties they like to reveal. Oh yes, and miraculously too all those numpties in Scottish politics would suddenly transform into the glamorous, balanced set of Borgen, complete with well thought out policies and low levels of corruption.

And gosh, another general election to look forward to. Wouldn't we be lucky? In anyone else's book thats more political turmoil.

If your only reason to vote No is because you don't like NS, then that's really shortsighted. If you have other reasons fair enough. I shall do my research, but certainly won't be getting my information from the Daily Express/Mail, or for that matter the majority of MSM

Again, stereotyping of voters as short sighted Daily Express readers who rely on google to broaden their knowledge is not only insulting, its likely to drive people away. Its amazing how little it occurs to SNP supporters (or similar) that some people in Scotland might be well read, or qualified or working professionally in a relevant field.

Two recent opinion polls have found that the majority of people in Scotland do not want another IndyRef in October 2023.

I bet Nicola and the SNP will not be respecting this. They only respect the will of the electorate - or any legal opinions - if they agree with the SNP.

It sickens me to hear Nicola Sturgeon preaching about respecting the will of the people of Scotland, when she and the SNP did not respect the result of the 2014 referendum for one single nano-second.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius can you tell me where these polls were published?

Just found one poll that said this conducted by the Scotsman who interviewed 1029 adults online.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/06/14/where-do-scots-stand-independence-2022

www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/6/30/voters-would-reject-scotland-independence-by-narrow-margin-poll

@darlingdodo Thanks for that. The majority of the YouGov poll do not think there should be a referendum next year, but that there should be one within five years. I have a lot of sympathy for that viewpoint.

www.politico.eu/article/scotland-uk-nicola-sturgeon-prepares-to-defy-westminster-and-announce-second-independence-vote/

Aye, and the poll with the 'should Scotland be an independent country?' shows No in the lead.

I know that.
But there are a lot undecided. Last time the yes number increased during campaigning.
But we will see.

Pretendyref is to
a) appease the fundamentalists in the Scottish National Party and
b) to drive wedge issues between Westminster and Holyrood, Scotland and England
both being done in order to maintain SNP control at next Scottish Parliament elections and maintain SNP party membership levels.

The vast majority of Scots (polls say) do not want another referendum no matter their voting intention.

There is no way a legal referendum will actually take place. And the SNP don't want one because they would lose. The polls haven't shifted an inch since 2014. It is still 55% No v 45% Yes.

I won't be voting. I am a No voter but I won't take part in this sham.

@MajorCarolDanvers what do you mean by SNP fundamentalists?

I mean those for whom nothing else matters apart from independence.

Many (not all) are also virulently anti-english and often toxic and abusive to those who don't agree with them.

I think those types have joined ALBA. From my knowledge, those types are anti-SNP for not yet delivering independence.