The Abortion Overton window

[MrsTerryPratchett]

There's already been a few and there will be more.

Following the American decision regarding abortion, campaigners and trolls will be trying to move abortion provision in other counties, including the UK, into a 'debate'. Our right to safe, accessible, free healthcare isn't a debate. As soon as people start behaving as though essential healthcare for women is debatable, we are in a dangerous place.

Please consider, when opening threads about abortion at the moment, that the aim is to move the Overton window. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#:~:text=The%20Overton%20window%20is%20the,as%20the%20window%20of%20discourse

I'm not enabling voting because that would rather feed into my point.

i come from a culture of gender preference for boys because patriarchy, it coerces/forces women into aborting their girls. I mean, I’ve never heard of it irl as I’m in the U.K. but I don’t doubt it still happens. But I would rather abortion be legal for any woman. If she’s being forced then I hope health professionals can work it out and help her but we shouldn’t ban it. It’s like womens clothing, just because I wouldn’t wear something doesn’t mean we take everyone else’s right to do so. If it makes the life for the woman better than having the baby I’m all for it. The world is a horrible place, women choosing to abort are not part of that problem, it’s the people who are trying to ban it that are.

Someone unthread mentioned this and it’s what I’ve been thinking deep down but didn’t know how to articulate but this sums it up: I trust women.

exactly

So you’re fine with people deciding to abort because the fetus is female?

Many people would not be on board with sex-selective abortions on-demand.

The huge majority (90%) of terminations occur before 10w. Sex selection is a straw man in the UK. Prenatal sdx selection is widely practised in America, but that's ok because it's rich mainly white couples.

Itrustwomen

I still remember Pete Buttigieg's answer when he was running for the Democratic nomination in 2019 and some media ghoul pressed him to condemn the 6,000 late term abortions in the US every year:

"That's right, representing one percent of cases. So let's put ourselves in the shoes of a woman in that situation. If it's that late in your pregnancy, than almost by definition, you've been expecting to carry it to term. We're talking about women who have perhaps chosen a name. Women who have purchased a crib, families that then get the most devastating medical news of their lifetime, something about the health or the life of the mother or viability of the pregnancy that forces them to make an impossible, unthinkable choice. And the bottom line is as horrible as that choice is, that woman, that family may seek spiritual guidance, they may seek medical guidance, but that decision is not going to be made any better, medically or morally, because the government is dictating how that decision should be made."

‘Forgive me if I am being naïve but when has this ever happened??’

possibly not but there are a number of people on this thread advocating for women to be able to abort their baby at any stage and for any reason. The average person in the UK would consider those people as extremists in the same way as we would consider those who think abortion should be banned completely are extremists.

I think the abortion rules in the UK are about right. I also don’t think roe v wade should have been overturned and think the statistics shown about large percentages of Americans thinking abortion should not be allowed in any circumstances are concerning.

there are a number of people on this thread advocating for women to be able to abort their baby at any stage and for any reason

No one is arguing that. They are arguing that it is a private decision between a woman and her doctors.

The Law doesn’t mandate when a limb can be amputated or chemotherapy given. Those are decisions with huge, potentially life-threatening, consequences, but we trust patients and doctors to reach the decision. Abortion should be no different.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow

of course they are.
don’t be disingenuous.
the minute it comes with caveats such as doctors approval then it isn’t trusting women and ‘as early as possible, as late as necessary’ is it?
If you don’t believe a woman can have an abortion up until full term for any reason you’re not actually pro- choice are you?
you are pro- choice with caveats which is exactly what people like me are just the caveats are different.

Wouldn't that leave lots to unravel?
Couples who shared their tax allowance, put them all back to the right tax allowance.

Couples where one has adopted a child where the other is the biological parent, do they revert the adoption or keep the child custodian of two unmarried people of the same sex?

One spouse loses rights to a home by virtue of marriage?

Are these couples issued with a divorce, annulment? Or what?

I don't think you could just remove gay marriage like that.

So you support forcing a woman to give birth against her will (albeit with some exceptions or caveats).

I don’t support that. I support a woman making her own choices about her own body. At all times.

Abortion after the 1st 10 weeks or so is a procedure that can only be carried out with the involvement of a doctor, so it is hardly restricting choice to say that a doctor would need to be involved in the decision.

Again, it should be exactly the same as any other medical decision - a decision between the woman and her doctors.

As with any other medical decision, patients' views are very important, but a doctor is never compelled to perform any operation, so it is always a joint decision.

So interesting that you refuse to own your views because you know how vile you will sound if you say:
‘Yes I believe a 39 week old foetus should be allowed to be aborted if the mother wishes it to happen’

I think it's an interesting discussion. I'm also pro choice. Just wondering though how you can say it's not a life, what's your criteria? Surely it's okay even if it is a life?

Gender ideology has already eroded a heap of women’s rights. Abortion and contraception is next.

@Smileyaxolotl1 I'll own it if you like.

If it is a choice between a woman being able to abort at full term and a woman being forced to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want to then I will go for the first option every time

It is a decision for the woman affected and her doctors. It is nothing to do with me. Her choice. Full stop.

Is there a risk that a woman would abort her 39 week old foetus out of spite or revenge or something? Well yes I guess there is. Women do indeed murder their children for revenge as you pointed out. Not many but some. H

However to paraphrase a better well know saying ...

Better for 1 late term abortion than 9 forced births.

MrsTerryPratchett

OK I'm going to have to concede you are making a very valid point and I've changed my mind. The posts I'm seeing on various threads are worrying, we need to stand firm.

#itrustwomen

I believe a 39 week old foetus should be allowed to be aborted if the mother wishes it to happen. I believe that with all my heart. #itrustthewoman.

So interesting that you refuse to own your views because you know how vile you will sound if you say: ‘Yes I believe a 39 week old foetus should be allowed to be aborted if the mother wishes it to happen’

Because it’s nonsense. Abortion should part of consensual healthcare. In REALITY an 8 month pregnant woman going to the doctors and asking for an abortion for no medical reason would be treated with great concern by medics and treated for mental illness.
At that stage in pregnancy it would have to be a birth or a caesarean anyway, rather than an abortion, and if the woman didn’t want to keep the baby then it would go into care. It’s not like the doctors would remove a living breathing newborn baby and kill it.
So the argument is irrelevant.
In some cases late abortion is carried out ( usually after a 20 week scan showing terrible abnormalities) and that is very traumatic and sad for all concerned. In theory a woman could randomly request a late abortion for no medical reason but it would be a very rare case, and the woman or girl would be treated as the individual they are.

As early as possible, as late as necessary, and every child a wanted child.

Arashi SexyLittleNosferatu

thank you for your honesty.

TammyOne

im not talking about what happens but what a number of people on this thread have clearly stated they think should happen.

‘It’s not like the doctors would remove a living breathing newborn baby and kill it.’

no - its heart would be stopped by injection first.

I'm split on this. On the one hand, I believe every pregnant woman should be able to choose to abort the pregnancy.

On the other hand, one in four pregnancies being terminated just feels too high to me.

I'm not sure how to square this circle!

Surely that late on they would induce labour or do a C-section? Wouldn't they?

Although this is the tangent that the OP warned us happens I suppose!

Europe has a problem of an ageing population and a declining birth rate. The U.S also has steady declining birth rate. Forced pregnancies (in any other guise) aim to counter this decline.

I thought your first line was suggesting a perfectly reasonable response which would prevent women from ever needing abortions.