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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The Abortion Overton window

321 replies

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/06/2022 17:57

There's already been a few and there will be more.

Following the American decision regarding abortion, campaigners and trolls will be trying to move abortion provision in other counties, including the UK, into a 'debate'. Our right to safe, accessible, free healthcare isn't a debate. As soon as people start behaving as though essential healthcare for women is debatable, we are in a dangerous place.

Please consider, when opening threads about abortion at the moment, that the aim is to move the Overton window. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#:~:text=The%20Overton%20window%20is%20the,as%20the%20window%20of%20discourse

I'm not enabling voting because that would rather feed into my point.

OP posts:
KohlaParasaurus · 25/06/2022 19:46

I'm absolutely digging my heels in. I like the idea of a hashtag. I have worked in front line health care for decades and probably counselled thousands of women who were pregnant and unhappy or ambivalent about it and signed thousands of abortion forms in that time. #itrustwomen #theeasierthebetter

Gakatsbsk · 25/06/2022 19:47

@MrsTerryPratchett

Thanks for this thread. I have perhaps engaged too much with some on other threads.

I feel very passionate about abortion care, late access abortions and that all reasons for an abortion are valid. Also that essential healthcare is not up for debate . I perhaps should’ve shut down some of the people on threads instead of attempting to make them see

Speedweed · 25/06/2022 19:48

It's not about viability - this is a red herring. Medical science advances all the time, so the point of viability just gets shorter and shorter, hence giving the appearance that the time limit for abortions should move to keep in step with medical advances.

But some serious developmental problems can only be detected when the foetus is fully developed, and all the medical science in the world can't change when that occurs. Only at the 20 week anatomy scan can it be confirmed that a foetus has developed correctly. This confirmation cannot be obtained via blood test.

I know two women who had late term abortions, both because of serious issues discovered at the 20 week anatomy scan (which, despite the name, can take place at any time between 20 and 22 weeks pregnant). Neither foetus - both very much planned and wanted) would have survived birth and breathed independently.

One woman was in the UK - she was given a follow up more detailed scan 48 hours later to confirm, and was then admitted for a termination.

The other was in the US, in Texas, which had already outlawed late abortions except where there was a risk to the mother's health. To add insult, her health insurance was a Texan firm and didn't cover an out of state termination, so she had to find a clinic in another state, book in (having also to go through the verification scan process), then book flights and a hotel, and book a week off work (unpaid), all out of pocket - the cost was around $8k. Even her doctor apologised for the barbaric law which would have required her to continue the pregnancy until she went into labour at full term, even though the foetus was only surviving because it was in utero.

No change is needed to the existing position in the UK. No debate.

VladmirsPoutine · 25/06/2022 19:54

The idea here is that if fools can get you to 'debate' with them then their views somehow become an equally valid perspective. A 'both sides' argument so I'm very much in favour of continuously repeating "I trust women" with you OP. There is no debate to be had. Even the very notion of 'but what about ectopic pregnancies' or rape or incest. A woman doesn't need to have experienced trauma in order for her abortion to be deemed worthy. No reason at all needed other than 'I just didn't want to have a baby'.

butterfly990 · 25/06/2022 19:55

It starts to look like the precursor to the book "Vox"

FacebookPhotos · 25/06/2022 19:57

A woman doesn't need to have experienced trauma in order for her abortion to be deemed worthy.

Absolutely this. No woman needs to justify why abortion is the right decision for her.

Suzi888 · 25/06/2022 19:58

… scary when you put it like that. I’m sure it’ll be pushed through.
What would happen regarding the morning after pill? Do they still have that overseas?

bellamountain · 25/06/2022 20:06

I've had miscarriages at 10 weeks after the heartbeat was seen just days before. I was devastated, I mourned for what could have been. It took me a long long time to get over each miscarriage, but make no mistake, there wasn't life at the bottom of the toilet bowl or anything resembling near life. It was hopes and dreams lost, not life.

There is no reason any woman has to justify herself. Her choice.

LemonSwan · 25/06/2022 20:18

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/06/2022 19:22

One of my favourite expressions is just because someone throws a ball, it doesn't mean you have to chase it. Term limits? Nope, I trust women. Abortion as contraception? I trust women. Coerced abortion? Better DV resources. Late term abortions? I trust women.

Don't care what the question is, the answer is the same. I trust women. They will make the right decisions for themselves.

And know your stats. Abortion is typically early and getting early. Countries where it's illegal have more AND they're unsafe. The answer to any issues is better rights for women and better access to education, money and contraception.

I am awful at that. I will have to remind myself. Hopefully can follow the lead of better posters.

Athenajm80 · 25/06/2022 20:19

butterfly990 · 25/06/2022 19:55

It starts to look like the precursor to the book "Vox"

Or Unborn by Rachel McLean. Worth a read but a bit scary considering yesterday's decision. It's free on Kindle Unlimited.

Pl242 · 25/06/2022 20:20

Completely agree. #Itrustwomen #asearlyaspossibleaslateasnecessary #choiceischoice

DashboardConfessional · 25/06/2022 20:23

There are definitely some triggers for me which make me argue, one being that the terminology of "ectopic pregnancy" makes some idiot men (and it is, because they've never needed to bother worrying about what they are) think it's a viable foetus that we have the science to just move.

limitedperiodonly · 25/06/2022 20:33

I know. It's like when people say there are two sides to an argument and they want to see the other side for balance or are just playing Devil's Advocate.

LemonSwan · 25/06/2022 20:39

DashboardConfessional · 25/06/2022 20:23

There are definitely some triggers for me which make me argue, one being that the terminology of "ectopic pregnancy" makes some idiot men (and it is, because they've never needed to bother worrying about what they are) think it's a viable foetus that we have the science to just move.

Exactly. I have been really triggered by this because I gave birth 2 months ago.

I had a csection and been told I cannot have another pregnancy for 2 years or I risk my uterus rupturing. That’s almost always a death sentence for a woman.

I hope I don’t get pregnant in this time, obviously taking precautions. But if it does happen I already know regrettably what I will do. I will not risk my current child growing up motherless. I want to give him a sibling so badly but only when it’s safe to do so.

I like the slogan - as early as possible as late as necessary. I will try to stick to it and not get drawn in.

LaughingPriest · 25/06/2022 20:44

The more this has gone on the more I've become solidly pro-choice.

The more I see what people try to sneak in under the guise of 'rights of the foetus' or whatever the more I'm convinced they are dishonest to the core.

Ectopic pregnancies, having medical treatment while pregnant, etc - none of this should be REMOTELY in question.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 25/06/2022 20:45

Honestly how anyone can think of America as a 'free country' is beyond me

Until yesterday, the US had far better abortion rights than the UK, because Roe v Wade held that women had a right to abortion under the 14th Amendment.

There is no right to abortion in the UK. Abortion is legal if your life is at risk from the pregnancy or if 2 doctors agree that the physical/mental effects of continuing the pregnancy would be worse than termination. In practice, you can usually get an abortion if you need one. At the moment. In the mainland UK. But there is no right to one.

Everyone in the UK wringing their hands over Roe v Wade needs to wake up and realise how tenuous their own access to abortion is.

NewYorkLassie · 25/06/2022 20:53

I can't get my head around a country wanting to ban abortion and also restrict access to contraception.

Me neither. It’s fucking appalling. I have many friends stateside and they are all beside themselves with disgust.

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/06/2022 21:01

Even the very notion of 'but what about ectopic pregnancies' or rape or incest.

It's the same concept as "she's someone's daughter/wife". It's all about rationing rights and choices. To only the 'deserving' women. Implying that we have to allow the less deserving women choices so we can make sure the actually deserving get theirs.

Well then men will just get better at weeding us out and separating us.

OP posts:
Travis1 · 25/06/2022 21:06

www.bufferzones.scot I’d urge any Scottish members to complete this survey. In fact I think anyone may be able to complete this regardless of location. Sick of seeing old white men outside the hospital when I drive past

FemmeNatal · 25/06/2022 21:11

IdiotCreatures · 25/06/2022 19:43

Anytime. Anywhere. Any reason. This is not a debatable issue.

So you’re fine with people deciding to abort because the fetus is female?

Many people would not be on board with sex-selective abortions on-demand.

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/06/2022 21:17

So you’re fine with people deciding to abort because the fetus is female?

So you're fine with forcing women to raise girls in violently misogynistic houses where people wish they didn't exist?

OP posts:
Whatsnewpussyhat · 25/06/2022 21:20

I can't get my head around a country wanting to ban abortion and also restrict access to contraception

Because it's about controlling female reproduction and treating women like cattle. Same old shit.

It has fuck all to do with the potential life of the foetus as they give no shits about the life of these babies once born.

Why is the life of the women and girls who will need an abortion not even taken into consideration?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 25/06/2022 21:21

FemmeNatal · 25/06/2022 21:11

So you’re fine with people deciding to abort because the fetus is female?

Many people would not be on board with sex-selective abortions on-demand.

Yup. I'm not at all fine with cultures that value boys more than girls. But I'd much rather that a girl isn't born into a family that doesn't want her, and that may subject her to infanticide, food deprivation, FGM, trafficking for the sex trade or child marriage.

PermanentTemporary · 25/06/2022 21:26

#itrustwomen

If a woman feels she can't continue a pregnancy of any type in her own body, that's enough. She doesn't have to justify it to me.

Eskarina1 · 25/06/2022 21:31

I think the only reason ectopic are worth mentioning is that making it illegal to treat women with an ectopic you make it so doctors will have to stand by and watch as women die. It should be absolutely nothing to do with abortion and its certainly nothing to do with choice.

Other than that it's a really important point and I've taken it on board.