The Abortion Overton window

[MrsTerryPratchett]

There's already been a few and there will be more.

Following the American decision regarding abortion, campaigners and trolls will be trying to move abortion provision in other counties, including the UK, into a 'debate'. Our right to safe, accessible, free healthcare isn't a debate. As soon as people start behaving as though essential healthcare for women is debatable, we are in a dangerous place.

Please consider, when opening threads about abortion at the moment, that the aim is to move the Overton window. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#:~:text=The%20Overton%20window%20is%20the,as%20the%20window%20of%20discourse

I'm not enabling voting because that would rather feed into my point.

So for me abortion for any reason up until birth is going too far doesn't really ring true, because we know that women don't suddenly get to 34 weeks and decide they want to terminate. The later stage abortions are a tiny proportion of terminations as a whole, and in very specific cases as has been described to death on the thread.

Barring rape, most women know sex carries a risk of pregnancy, so has decided to create the foetus at some point. Obviously we all make mistakes
I think this is an oversimplification too. There are many scenarios in which either you could not be aware you're pregnant by this point, or your circumstances or those surrounding you have changed, even if initially becoming pregnant was a concious decision.

It's been demonstrated over and again that relaxing restrictions on abortions does not lead to more girls/women having them later on pregnancy.

@hepatocyte but there are pro choice people on here arguing that abortion at any time for any reason should be the law. This is off putting to moderate people who still support the UK provision as it stands. It sounds extreme. I do think we have to expect more of women than this. Contraception here is free and fairly effective, especially combined with a knowledge of your own cycle. There are many sexual activities that don't carry the risk of pregnancy. And if all this fails there are pregnancy tests, doctors and early terminations available. I just don't see the need to push for the right to abort a healthy foetus up to birth. It sounds amoral and irresponsible.

@gnilliwdog
As i said, there are many scenarios in which either you could not be aware you're pregnant by 12 weeks (your point at which you think termination should be available until), or your circumstances or those surrounding you have changed, even if initially becoming pregnant was a concious decision.

Contraception here is free and fairly effective, especially combined with a knowledge of your own cycle. There are many sexual activities that don't carry the risk of pregnancy. And if all this fails there are pregnancy tests, doctors and early terminations available

For certain demongraphics. I think you're applying your own life experiences and perspectives to this, when there are many communities in which this isn't the common knowledge and easy access you think it is.

Are you of the opinion that unless you support abortion at any time for any reason you are not pro choice then? While I understand your point about demographics I think education is more key than offering abortion under any terms. I expect there are some people who can't access pregnancy tests and doctors, but I think we probably cover that eventuality under existing arrangements. There are always exceptions. But I don't think making a general law that anyone can have an abortion whenever they want, for any reason is acceptable to me. Does this make people like me anti abortion, in your view? And should there be campaigns for abortion rights, do we not belong to your group, would you say?

And "there are many sexual activities that don't carry the risk of pregnancy" is hardly going to help if you're in a coercive relationship or a victim of DA/IPV.

If I got pregnant from consensual activity, and didn't access any early options to prevent/end the pregnancy, then yes that would be on me and I'd be fully responsible, which is what you seeming to be getting at.

But I'm educated, well-off, white, mentally well, housed, within the NHS system and not in any kind of abusive relationship, be it intimate partner or family. I really think you need to think about the many people who are not when you make these kinds of statements @gnilliwdog

Nope, you're putting words in my mouth.

I've pointed out several times now easing restrictions around abortion laws does not lead to an increase in later term abortions. There's a wealth of epidemiological research demonstrating this.

@hepatocyte Ok, I am confused. I can't work out what you stand for. But an issue like this will always have people coming at it from different angles, I suppose people with my views would have to fight our own battle to preserve abortion provision as it is in the UK. Hopefully we could come together on some issues.

Put simply:

Restrictions around abortion does not lead to less abortions, or earlier abortions. Right to choose does not lead to increases in women suddenly deciding they want an abortion at 38 weeks for a healthy pregnancy. We have so much epidemiological & public health data showing this.

Restrictions around to abortion does lead to an erosion of reproductive rights, as evidenced by the US.

People can't seem to get their head round this.

Sorry, are there any countries which allow abortion of a healthy foetus at 38 weeks? Thanks for clarifying. You seem to be saying you think abortion any time for any reason is a reasonable proposal, because you don't think it would lead to an increase in late abortions. Do you see any scenario where the absolute freedom to terminate, for any reason, could be abused by governments, partners, families, even social pressures? Do you believe you could entirely safeguard a woman's autonomy in this?

@gnilliwdog you don't seem to want to engage with or consider anything I'm saying and honestly it's incredibly depressing.

I have tried @hepatocyte !

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

12 week limit unless for medical/lifesaving reasons.

Like most EU countries.

Other valid opinions are available.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

I trust women.

@gnilliwdog For me I think the alternative to not allowing an abortion as "late as necessary" is worse than the very miniscule chance that a woman would terminate a 39 week pregnancy for no good reason at all.

Would I do it? Irrelevant. It is not my body and not my choice.

The only thing you can ever really say is yours is your body. No-one should ever be able to overrule your decision about what happens to it.

I choose for me. She chooses for her.

@PetraBP 12 week limit unless for medical/lifesaving reasons

I think the problem with this is whilst it looks reasonable, as soon as you begin qualifying reasons it becomes easier to shift the Overton window. So if we said 12 weeks other than medical reasons, those medical reasons need defining, and it's then a lot easier for people to campaign to restrict the medical reasons covered rather than campaign against abortion directly.

I'm not sure I'm articulating myself well but basically I think it then gets easier to deny women terminations as we are qualifying which medical issues identified in an anomaly scan are "serious enough" to warrant a termination.

That's why I would say I support as early as possible, as late as necessary, as I trust women to make that decision on an individual basis. And I agree with others that that is unlikely to lead to a surge in late term abortions for no medical reason.

Yes exactly

It also means other measures can creep in - like restrictions on previously allowed medications in pregnancy, contraception that prevents implantation no longer offered etc

I thought it would be helpful for me to understand what the Overton Window is. It is the socially acceptable position in an argument that has extreme views.

The irony with this thread, is that statements such as

"As early as possible, as late as necessary.

I trust women."

Are at the extreme end of the debate, and outside the Overton Window. The more they are said and repeated, the more I find my personal position moving more towards Pro-Life because I fear the extreme position being put across here.

I am sure that if there were similarly extreme Pro-Life people making posts, they would move me more towards Pro-choice for similar reasons, an internal backlash against extreme views.

Yes @Nanananananana99 - you’ve put this better than I did.

The other irony is that a lot of people commenting on this don’t seem to understand the current law in this country.

I do understand the law and stand by As early as possible As late as necessary.

Necessary- needing to be done.

I am not saying as early as possible as late as you want.

Want- a desire/wish for something

As early as possible, As late as necessary