The Abortion Overton window

[MrsTerryPratchett]

There's already been a few and there will be more.

Following the American decision regarding abortion, campaigners and trolls will be trying to move abortion provision in other counties, including the UK, into a 'debate'. Our right to safe, accessible, free healthcare isn't a debate. As soon as people start behaving as though essential healthcare for women is debatable, we are in a dangerous place.

Please consider, when opening threads about abortion at the moment, that the aim is to move the Overton window. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#:~:text=The%20Overton%20window%20is%20the,as%20the%20window%20of%20discourse

I'm not enabling voting because that would rather feed into my point.

Exactly what this thread is about.

I trust women

As soon as possible as late as necessary

You don't need to square a circle. You can decide what you want to do to your body. All I expect is for you to return the courtesy.

You don't need to. It just isn't your business. You are free to decide what you do with your own body and I am free to decide what to do with mine. Your approval isn't required and has no bearing on the decision I or the next woman makes.

You don't reduce the number of abortions by making it harder to get an abortion. You do it through good sex education, access to contraceptive services and access to emergency contraception. You do it by improving the lives of women.

All excellent hashtags and this thread is brilliant, but could we remember to put the capitals in at the start of words? Makes them much more accessible as text readers can read them then
#ITrustWomen #AsEarlyAsPossibleAsLateAsNecessary #ChoiceIsChoice

No one told me this when I had a C-section.

I appreciate you don't mean this in a judgemental way, so please understand this reply is in no way meant to be aggressive, just to put context around the statistic.

I have one baby, have had 2 abortions for differing reasons, and have had surgical management of an ectopic pregnancy. Depending on how that last scenario is classed under the statistics, either 50% or 75% of my pregnancies have ended in abortion, vs the article's 25% average.

I don't regret either abortion, obviously it's not a particularly pleasant experience but I know in both cases it was absolutely the right decision for me. Even when I then lost a wanted pregnancy to the ectopic I didn't regret either of my past decisions for an instant. I therefore trust every woman to do the same, and if that number were to rise much higher I would still trust that women everywhere were making the right decisions.

Arashi
I believe that is what would happen as otherwise it would be the ‘forced birth’ that is mentioned.
it is very hard to get accurate information because the pro lifers obviously want to make late term abortions sound as horrific as possible.

If this is going to happen in this country (women’s healthcare being considered debatable) it will be down to how much money is pumped into Facebook ads, analytics, and data mining by minority right wing interest groups back by millionaire donors. Like what happened with Brexit.

If we are going to be wary of anything it should be of copy and pasted status updates, and memes/pictures with quotes originating from extremist pages but being widely shared by ‘friends’ with no context.

Challenge everything. Let people in the echo chambers know we women have a voice.

Well let's hope not but a bit of extra admin caused by reverting gay marriage seems a lot less severe than thinking of the number of women who will die as a result of banning abortions.

If they don't ban gay marriage I will be incredibly shocked. Fucking happy, but very shocked.

I find this exchange confusing.

At 8 months abortion would only be an option to save the life of the mother. Abortion after 24 weeks isn’t a “trust the woman” thing under mainland U.K. law and never has been. After 24 weeks it is extremely limited and has to be authorised by two doctors.

Do you have the exact same medical history as the OP?

As the poster, I mean. Not the OP of the thread.

I 100% agree with this.
Very important thread @MrsTerryPratchett
Better provisions for women, better social care support for women, better access to contraception for women, better health care for women, better support for women in DV situations. That is what is needed.

This ruling has put more women at risk.

Abortion hasn’t been banned in America. SAFE abortion has been banned.

I TRUST WOMEN

It will depend on what your csection was like and how long ago you had it (ie the advice is more up to date now)

If your C was relatively straightforward, the advice is a minimum of 6 months but ideally 12-18 months. If the surgery on your uterus was more complicated then the advice may be to wait long.

It also makes a difference if you are planning to VBAC or not.

I had extensive surgery on the top of my uterus which means I will never have a vaginal birth (safely) as contractions and pushing would increase the risk of uterine rupture.

Most csecs are straightforward (not saying they aren’t traumatic) and rupture in a second pregnancy is very low if you take the right time to let your body heal hence why VBAC is usually encouraged.

Also, after my C, I was encouraged by the maternity unit to take the contraceptive injection which again is to cut the risk of falling pregnant too soon.

As they now want to remove rights to contraception in America, women would be at more risk of falling pregnant too early especially in abusive and controlling relationships.

If that is aimed at me, where have I said that?

Abortion is a private medical decision between a woman and her doctors, just like every other medical decision. There are lots of medical procedures that I would object to, unless they were absolutely necessary. I don't believe that people should have limbs removed, or organs extracted, or be given chemo unless they really need it. But I trust patients and their doctors to make those decisions.

Why are pregnant women - uniquely - not to be trusted?

It’s not really helpful to give the impression that women are choosing abortions at 31+ weeks. It’s only legal up to 23 weeks 6 days so if a woman is having an abortion after that point it’s pretty disingenuous to call it that when in reality it is probably a medical emergency to save the life of the mother or the foetus was not viable.

Pretending that women are choosing to get rid of viable babies just feeds into the myths surrounding abortion that cause it to be treated with hysteria.

I’m inclined to think that people suggesting this are actually ‘pro-life trolls’ trying to make women who want reasonable access to safe healthcare seem UR.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/abortion-clarification-of-time-limit/clarification-of-time-limit-for-termination-of-pregnancy-performed-under-grounds-c-and-d-of-the-abortion-act-1967

Nanananananana99

I don’t think anyone thinks that 39 weeks abortions of healthy babies are happening in the UK
however a number of people on this thread clearly think that should be allowed though they are perhaps not specifically advocating for it.

What I'm saying should be "allowed" is 100% choice throughout.

You can square the circle by thinking properly about why one in four seems too high to you, what moral judgements are you making? Are they rooted in reality? What would limiting the rate of abortions to a level you feel comfortable with actually mean for the women who need one?

Two out of my four pregnancies have ended in abortion. One before my two children were born, one after (almost a decade between them). That's 50% of my pregnancies. Is that too high? Should I have had a third child even though I really didn't want to because I was over my "allowance" of terminations?

I made the right decision both times, I don't regret either termination. I trust women.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

yes I am presenting your view accurately then.

any reason up to birth.

and? Why do you keep pushing this point? You've been told repeatedly how rare it is. One could almost mistake you for a forced birther. Surely not?

👏🏼 what a thoughtful response to this. I always stumble when someone says this but love this response.

As early as possible, as late as necessary- always

I have a relative who has had 3 abortions and 2 children. She's very fertile and it's only 5 conceptions over 40 years. Is that too many abortions? Too many children? Why? She doesn't regret either the abortions or the children BTW. I've never needed an abortion as I'm not very fertile. So what? I would have had one if I'd needed it.

If people want to reduce abortion rates, there are lots and lots of ways to do that that don't involve making medical care unsafe, mostly to do with making it easy to prevent pregnancy.

That's to everyone contributing to this conversation. Including those neatly demonstrating my point with their straw men.

It's also worth listening to and telling the stories of the women who went before us. My own family has it's tragic stories. We probably all know a woman who has been forced to give birth, I know I do. Women dying from backstreet abortions is in living memory and is happening right now in places like Nicaragua. It will take a while for the trade to start up again in the US but it will.

Women will die from botched attempts to terminate pregnancies.

It strikes me that you can’t take away with one hand and not give with the other. Women in USA really NEED to have access to cheap, readily available contraception regardless of health insurance status. It’s a no brainer.

Also at what point is an unborn baby a person? When a woman miscarries and loses a much wanted pregnancy she mourns the death of an unborn baby. When a woman has an abortion a foetus is terminated.
So which is it? In the eyes of the law it can’t be both - foetus or baby? human being or a collection of cells? I guess that when the law starts looking at viability and stage of gestation to decide. Because at some point if an unborn baby is viewed in the eyes of the law as a person, then the argument is that is has rights.
Maternal safety then must be considered also.

Selective abortion based on sex also most certainly does take place. In some countries there is a far higher percentage of male babies born- too high for it to be just nature. There was a discussion thread on this a few years back. What do people think of that? Who is making the choice there? The men? The women? Are we to trust them for that?

Link to the figures here