To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

I mean, the initial comment that sparked it off is in my post. Referring to a trans woman as “laddy” and commenting “put your knob away” is hateful.

The “insane” comments are regarding the comments insisting that I am a man, that I want to create a world that resembles the Handmaid’s Tale, that I want women to be “doormats to men”. I mean.. there’s plenty..

And yet at the same time I keep being told I’m the angry one “lashing out”…

So if they are not women, why do you believe they should have ‘the same rights as the gender they identify as’ ? What rights do they not have as men that they would have as women if not access to women’s spaces? Are you stating you would be happy for men to be in women’s spaces if they said they were women, even though you have stated they are not women?

All the people who are saying “trans women aren’t women, but I support trans people” 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄. What gas lighting bull. It’s like the Christian’s who go “I love gay people , I just think having gay sex is sinful” 🤮🤮🤮

I wholeheartedly support the rights of individuals to dress and self represent in any way they choose. I’d use chosen names and pronouns. Everyone deserves to feel safe and not to be verbally or physically abused.

However for me it’s a uterus and vagina that makes me a woman. No female sex organs means you are not a woman.

No it's not

No one is saying trans identifying is sinful

It's more like saying they don't believe that boris Jonson is a good prime minister even though he identifies as such

Even posting this poll in good faith garners responses of “you’re clearly trying to be inflammatory”. I don’t believe I am, because if you support trans rights then you believe that they are women. It’s not possible to support them and at the same time tell them they are not what they identify as.

It depends what you think ‘trans rights’ are.

Trans people have the same human rights as non-trans people.

They can identify their gender however they like. It won’t make them biologically a different sex, but I’m not sure why that matters to a trans person - if their right to express their chosen gender is enshrined, then what does it matter what someone ensembles believes inside their head?

Not remotely comparable. It's actually laughable you've thought to type it

Thank god for you 👏

or the men who say I’m a frilly girly woman who supports women and if you don’t let me in your spaces I’ll rape you. Like them. Transwomen are not women. They are males who deserve to have the same rights as every other male.

Lol this poll is like the emailers Donald Trump’s campaign sent round:

A) Yes- I support Donald Trump
B) No - I hate freedom and America and everything it stands for.

😂

Absolutely.

It always amazes me how one group in a minority are happy to trample on another groups rights (often another minority group) to get themselves heard.

You've got a platform here to state your case and answer questions on your beliefs but you're not going to engage because you don't actually have any answers. Always the same. Yawn.

@StolenCookie
I don’t believe I am, because if you support trans rights then you believe that they are women. It’s not possible to support them and at the same time tell them they are not what they identify as.

This is at odds with what a lot of trans folk believe. The TWAW and TMAM mantra is not universally supported by trans folks in all ways. There are plenty who believe that identifying with a gender is not the same as being that sex and the categories of "woman" and "man" aren't solely gender categories. That to take the position that TWAW and TMAM in a simplistic way denies the complex reality of their experience.

And yet still you've not answered the what should be 'easy' questions.. which is after all why you posted?

Do your own research, form your own opinion.

I did. I came to the conclusion that mtf transitioners are not women.

Nice unbiased voting there op. Wind up?

I'm pro women, not anti trans and twaNOTw.

Ah... are you highly religious OP ?

Do you prefer men to be transwomen rather than in a traditional gay relationship?

Still waiting for OP to tell us what a woman is so we can decide if we agree TWAW or not @StolenCookie surely it’s not that hard is it…

I support trans people’s rights to express their chosen gender.

I don’t believe they’ve changed sex though.

I’m not sure why that’s a problem? I accept their belief; they can accept mine?

I can believe that trans people feel a sense of dysphoria with their body. I can believe that they would like to be a different sex from the sex they are. But I don't and can't believe that they are a different sex from what they are.

I sort of feel like the "trans women are women" thing is unhelpful because people are generally using two different definitions of women - one the dictionary definition which relates to the female sex and one a woolier one (which frankly I haven't seen effectively defined) that basically means people of the female sex who don't actively decide that they don't fit that category and people of the male sex who do actively decide they fit that category.

If the question is are trans women female, I'm afraid my answer is no.

But that doesn't mean I'm not prepared to use the pronouns someone asks when they ask, or to call them whatever name they want. It doesn't mean I don't want them to get adequate support for the difficulties they face as a result of how they feel. I want people who identify as trans to be able to live lives free from abuse.

I do think there are times when divisions on the basis of sex Vs divisions on the fuzzy-definition conflict and I don't have all the answers to that, but I don't think the answer is always that one definition should trump the other in either direction.

And you OP ❤️

I believe sex and gender are different.

When I say trans women are women, I mean they identify as a woman in terms of their gender identity, and that is what I recognise them as.

Aww we’ve got a budding bromance going on. See, AIBU is a force for good. It’s cute.

Can you link the thread? I advance searched but couldn't find it.
Usually posts like you describe are quickly deleted and I tend to think people who post that are not genuine but want to make mumsnet appear transphobic

conflictedunicorn and in my post I talked about third spaces. I've been MN for quite some time and believe me I've come across many people like you who twist words to fit your argument. In my original post I stated what I believe. I work with a number of trans people in a supportive role. You are wasting your time, you are not going to change my beliefs. Thanks for your interest but I won't be wasting anymore of your time and mine by engaging with you.