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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

1000 replies

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 18:14

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 19:03

murasaki · 24/06/2022 19:01

The thread starter is clearly a drive by shooter gathering ammunition for yet another twitter pile on.

Or irredeemably stupid.

After last nights debacle and this… I vote stupid

Doyoumind · 24/06/2022 19:04

murasaki · 24/06/2022 19:01

The thread starter is clearly a drive by shooter gathering ammunition for yet another twitter pile on.

Or irredeemably stupid.

Of course they are. As if we haven't seen this faux naivety a hundred times before. Then their friends follow on behind. But they are always tripped up as their arguments don't stand up to scrutiny.

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 19:05

The people telling me to ‘have a debate’ - that’s exactly what I tried to do. But the vitriol makes it absolutely impossible.

So yes, in shock from all the hateful and insane responses, I googled to see what other people say about Mumsnet. And I never realised that it’s seen as an incredibly toxic, anti-trans space.

Even posting this poll in good faith garners responses of “you’re clearly trying to be inflammatory”. I don’t believe I am, because if you support trans rights then you believe that they are women. It’s not possible to support them and at the same time tell them they are not what they identify as.

Also I never told anyone to speak in a more ‘ladylike’ way. This is another thing that makes it impossible to debate - constantly attributing quotes to me that I never said! All I said was that referring to a trans woman as “laddy” and writing something to the effect of “put your knob away” sounded problematic and transphobic to me. Then all hell broke loose and I was accused of supporting the abuse of women. Actually insane.

OP posts:
Witchcraftandhokum · 24/06/2022 19:05

Sorry conflictedunicorn when you say It is not a fact. Notice not one of them actually believes it, they’re just messing. who do you mean?

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 19:06

Witchcraftandhokum · 24/06/2022 19:02

conflictrdunicorn I said NOT believing transmen are men would affect womens rights. Because if you believe they are women you are denying their rights to identify as male.

I haven't said a word about trans mens health rights but yes I believe they should be screened for all.of those things should they want it, why wouldn't I?

so you don’t believe transmen are men then? Because if you did, you’d be saying they didn’t need those tests what with being male and all. They have the absolute taught to identify as male, they just do not have the right to force anyone else to indulge that belief.

Doyoumind · 24/06/2022 19:07

But do you think TW are female, before you flounce?

AllThingsServeTheBeam · 24/06/2022 19:07

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 19:05

The people telling me to ‘have a debate’ - that’s exactly what I tried to do. But the vitriol makes it absolutely impossible.

So yes, in shock from all the hateful and insane responses, I googled to see what other people say about Mumsnet. And I never realised that it’s seen as an incredibly toxic, anti-trans space.

Even posting this poll in good faith garners responses of “you’re clearly trying to be inflammatory”. I don’t believe I am, because if you support trans rights then you believe that they are women. It’s not possible to support them and at the same time tell them they are not what they identify as.

Also I never told anyone to speak in a more ‘ladylike’ way. This is another thing that makes it impossible to debate - constantly attributing quotes to me that I never said! All I said was that referring to a trans woman as “laddy” and writing something to the effect of “put your knob away” sounded problematic and transphobic to me. Then all hell broke loose and I was accused of supporting the abuse of women. Actually insane.

Insane?

You've still not explained what a woman is or why you think a trans woman is a woman?

This comment will be completely ignored like the rest.

UndertheCedartree · 24/06/2022 19:07

SoupDragon · 24/06/2022 18:14

Your two voting options are not mutually exclusive and are therefore pointless.

Agree

LoobyDop · 24/06/2022 19:07

“So yes, in shock from all the hateful and insane responses”

Uh-huh.

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 19:08

Doyoumind · 24/06/2022 19:04

Of course they are. As if we haven't seen this faux naivety a hundred times before. Then their friends follow on behind. But they are always tripped up as their arguments don't stand up to scrutiny.

This is another thing I keep being accused of. Faux naivety. What is this about?? Can someone please explain, sarcasm aside, what it is you think I’m doing when you say I’m being faux naive?

How can people tell me to ‘stick around and have a debate’ when this happens? You’re making it impossible to engage..

OP posts:
Witchcraftandhokum · 24/06/2022 19:08

conflictedunicorn I haven't said I believe trans men are men or trans women are women, which is why in my first post I said there was a difference between sex and gender. Please stop twisting my words to fit your argument.

DarkCharlotte · 24/06/2022 19:08

Trans women aren't women.

Women are adult human females, not femininity or womanly "feelings", not "anyone who identifies as a woman".

Trans women are adult human males, aka men, with gender dysphoria. They want to be women, but they are not, that is actually what makes them trans.

How can you identify as something you cannot even define? Interestingly, some people say "I am not a woman, therefore I cannot define one". However, how do you know you aren't a woman if you don't know what one is?

If someone asked me if I am a "bobkin" and I don't know what that word even means, how can I conclude the word doesn't apply to me? If you define it for me, I can tell you. "A bobkin is anyone who says they are a bobkin" is clearly nonsense. Now, you might say "bobkin" means nothing, but "woman" does, so you cannot compare them. So, what is a woman? What does it mean?

Woman is a biological category defining species, maturity, and sex. That's it.

It makes zero sense. If they are dysphoric with their body, that is gender dysphoria, a mental disorder. If they are dysphoric about their assigned gender role (expectations of masculinity) then that is an issue with enforced stereotypes, it doesn't make them women, it makes them feminine men.

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 19:08

Witchcraftandhokum · 24/06/2022 19:05

Sorry conflictedunicorn when you say It is not a fact. Notice not one of them actually believes it, they’re just messing. who do you mean?

You for one. You have said you ‘believe’ transwomen are women. You have brought no facts to back it up. If you honestly believed they were women, you’d have reasons why you believed this. You don’t. You’re just trying to rile people up. Which is sad really.

TeenPlusCat · 24/06/2022 19:09

@StolenCookie I don’t believe I am, because if you support trans rights then you believe that they are women. It’s not possible to support them and at the same time tell them they are not what they identify as.

Why? I support people having freedom of religious belief, that doesn't mean I have to believe in all the different religions.

it is perfectly possible to agree that transpeople shouldn't be discriminated against for jobs, housing, benefits, being served in pubs, freedom from abuse etc without believing that transwomen are actually women.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/06/2022 19:09

Welcome goady mcgoady face

are the screenshots on twitter yet?

cant you lot even pretend to be subtle

SoupDragon · 24/06/2022 19:09

Merryclaire · 24/06/2022 19:00

I believe that trans people should be able to live life as their ‘authentic selves’, free from fear and discrimination.

If that means them identifying as a man or woman publicly and using their preferred pronouns, then I have no issues with that in the slightest.

Unfortunately, though, no one can biologically change their sex, and as such there are so many complications to the self identification rules. This does occasionally (but not always) undermine the rights of biological women.

For example:


  • Being referred to as womb carriers, pregnant people, or people with cervixes, rather than women.

  • The whole debacle with sports categories.

  • Lesbians being told they are transphobic for not wanting to be intimate with trans women with male genitalia.

  • Female changing rooms, shelters and prisons being open to abuse (of course this is a minority but sadly does happen).


So while I support trans rights, I also support women’s rights

I think it’s an incredibly complex issue and we have some way to go before everyone is being treated fairly. But fairness to trans people should not be at the expense of fairness to women.

This!

Lemonyfuckit · 24/06/2022 19:10

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 19:05

The people telling me to ‘have a debate’ - that’s exactly what I tried to do. But the vitriol makes it absolutely impossible.

So yes, in shock from all the hateful and insane responses, I googled to see what other people say about Mumsnet. And I never realised that it’s seen as an incredibly toxic, anti-trans space.

Even posting this poll in good faith garners responses of “you’re clearly trying to be inflammatory”. I don’t believe I am, because if you support trans rights then you believe that they are women. It’s not possible to support them and at the same time tell them they are not what they identify as.

Also I never told anyone to speak in a more ‘ladylike’ way. This is another thing that makes it impossible to debate - constantly attributing quotes to me that I never said! All I said was that referring to a trans woman as “laddy” and writing something to the effect of “put your knob away” sounded problematic and transphobic to me. Then all hell broke loose and I was accused of supporting the abuse of women. Actually insane.

Genuinely not being goady OP, and in the spirit of debate please could you point me to the vitriol and 'hateful and insane' response you're seeing? As it's the same question those of us who are GC always have when we're told that not believing TWAW is 'hateful', transphobic and, well, mean. HOW is it hateful? I believe in biological fact and women's sex-based rights. Please explain why you think that makes me hateful of trans people.

Scianel · 24/06/2022 19:10

Maybe MN just isn't the place for you.

AllThingsServeTheBeam · 24/06/2022 19:11

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 19:08

This is another thing I keep being accused of. Faux naivety. What is this about?? Can someone please explain, sarcasm aside, what it is you think I’m doing when you say I’m being faux naive?

How can people tell me to ‘stick around and have a debate’ when this happens? You’re making it impossible to engage..

You've not responded to questions. Try that.

Witchcraftandhokum · 24/06/2022 19:11

'Conflictedunicorn* please see my above post. I have not said I believe trans women are women.

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 19:11

Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/06/2022 19:09

Welcome goady mcgoady face

are the screenshots on twitter yet?

cant you lot even pretend to be subtle

They identify as subtle and believe they are being clever.

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/06/2022 19:12

You've not responded to questions. Try that.

I would personally love an answer to my question about sex offenders with penises in women's prisons.

TIA OP.

Doyoumind · 24/06/2022 19:13

It's interesting that OP posted here instead of in the naughty corner, where they would truly have had their arse handed to them.

HelloHeathcliffeItsMe · 24/06/2022 19:13

@StolenCookie I'd be interested to know what you make of @Merryclaire 's post, as I think she's really eloquently put how many of us feel.

Kiplingsroad · 24/06/2022 19:15

Flounce is definitely imminent. I don't think anyone's been 'insane' here. They have just firmly disagreed with you and your silly little poll.

As for MN being an "incredibly toxic" space, well, maybe find another space? A lot of (mostly) women get a lot of support here for all kinds of things, and if you don't, why are you here? People are allowed to debate, and they are allowed to disagree with you. You've come on for a fight, and you've got one, so job done, surely?

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