To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

Trans women have a unique take on..... being a trans woman. And the most marginalised group in society? Nope, don't think so.

As to having no representation, I think you'll find transwomen are possibly over represented in many sectors of society - the BBC, arts organisations, there were 7 trans candidates in the 2019 GE.

Trans women could always set up their own awards and recognitions. But of course that wouldn't be validating enough, would it?

I don’t want anyone to suffer violence - but you do realise that putting TW in men’s prisons exposes them to terrible violence and rape too?

Dont TW prisoners also deserve to be kept safe?

Why not? How does it affect your life? I assume you aren’t a pro athlete or in prison, so why do you care?

My child is an elite athlete who is looking to go pro. He has a protected characteristic. I do have a stake in this.

People with defined bodily characteristic such as sex and disability should compete equally.

Trans woman are just that. The reason they call the,selves trans is because they've transitioned either medically or just gender specifically.

They are not biologically woman. They do not belong in woman sex only spaces.

They need their own safe spaces. Not least because that then protects them from the harm you say they face. The same way woman needs ex segregated safe spaces to protect them from harm.

Not quite sure where you're going with that one FunLovinGal. If you extrapolated the 50% you suggested to the population outside of prison that's actually quite a big deal.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I care more about them then you do about TW.

You just sound like a terribly prejudiced person and I don’t know why I bothered thinking there might be some trans supporters on here. Clearly not!

• I don’t want anyone to suffer violence - but you do realise that putting TW in men’s prisons exposes them to terrible violence and rape too?

Dont TW prisoners also deserve to be kept safe?*

Then maybe Stonewall can use some of the millions they earn from their diversity racket scheme to fund special wings for them.

So TW aren’t allowed role models in the mainstream? How inclusive of you…

Stop putting words in my mouth. I care more about them then you do about TW.

Based on what? You're more than happy to walk all over their rights in favour of men identifying as women.

You just sound like a terribly prejudiced person and I don’t know why I bothered thinking there might be some trans supporters on here. Clearly not!

You can't engage in rational debate, obviously. But why are you so prejudiced against women? Why are their rights so unimportant to you?

I completely agree. Transwomen prisoners who feel unsafe are held on Vulnerable Prisoners wings, or in designated sex offender prisons if they are sex offenders. There is plenty of provision in the male estate for vulnerable male-bodied individuals, regardless of their gender presentation.

The female estate needs to keep its limited segregation facilities for women who are violent, not men.

Also, FunLovinGal, in my post I didn't refer to the sex of potential child abusers. In your response you referred to men, proving you know exactly which sex is more dangerous.

Why not? How does it affect your life? I assume you aren’t a pro athlete or in prison, so why do you care?

It's great you think pro athletes should care about biological males competing against biological woman in woman's sexual races.

Fina will be pleased to hear that despite some people thinking trainwoman are woman they shouldn't be allowed to compete against biological woman.

@Tandora

Just a thought but in the same way that it is 'literal violence' to mis-gender someone are you not being transphobic by assigning someone a gender?

I am also curious as to how you can identify someone's gender when you fail at identifying their sex.

Men aren’t afraid of them in the same way
This is a bit of spectacular own goal. Well done.
Men aren't afraid of women the same way that women are afraid of men because men are generally speaking the stronger, arguably more physically aggressive sex.
So why would a man be afraid of a trans man, a biological woman in the same way that a woman might be afraid of a transwoman, a biological male?

So what everyone here is saying then?

Trans woman are free to be who they are - but should not be allowed to entered woman's biological sex areas.

It's interesting those who say TWAW also agree except when it puts biological woman at a disadvantage.

Women should understand what it’s like to be second class citizens historically - so why treat TW the same and exclude them from being recognised and rewarded for their skills and achievements?

They absolutely can be. In their own category or on their image sex category.

Why does it need to be the woman's category and squash the hard earned rights of woman for equality?

I don’t want anyone to suffer violence - but you do realise that putting TW in men’s prisons exposes them to terrible violence and rape too?

Don't TW prisoners also deserve to be kept safe?

I do. That's why I think there should be separated wings for trans people in prisons. Again we are back to the shower ate slaves too protect ALL. therefore trans people don't have their rights given above the rights of biological males and females.

If you believe TWAW then they should be able to access rape crisis centres, womens sport and women's prisons. I do not believe that TW belong in these places, and therefore I hold the position that TW are not women. They are TW.

Given the power and reach of the TW lobby, why aren't they setting up exclusively TW literary awards, rape crisis centres, sports awards, etc?

FunLovinGal, transwomen have role models amongst the trans community, same as women have role models who are women. I don't really understand your point tbh. Trans people I'm sure admire people who aren't trans, and vice versa. So why not have prizes/awards/recognition for trans artists in the same way that women are recognised, ensuring they get a bite of the cherry. Hopefully, in the future, there will come a time where representation is fair for everyone and there won't have to be special recognition based on sex. We're not there yet. Women still lag behind.

You haven't commented on the question of why trans men are rarely recognised in any form - sport? Well, that's fairly obvious. But why not elsewhere? They're completely under represented.

Because they’re less likely to beat them at sport?!

1.so there is a difference and advantages between female and male bodies then when it comes to sport?

2.yeah, sure that's the only reason.

What a shitty 'vote'. I can support the rights of trans people to live their lives - BUT I will never ever believe that people can change sex. I will also never accept the erosion of women's rights and spaces.

Maybe try a tiny bit of critical thinking ....

Transwomen are transwomen.

Nope

But i define women by biology

Transwomen are welcome to live as women. Doesn't make the biological thing go away unforts.

You are a misogynist. Do you realise how demeaning you’re being, reducing women to a “feeling” in a man’s head?

Women are full human beings, we exist separate to men. We are entitled to our own definition, our own words, our own biological reality, our own rights and, legally, our own spaces. The only thing that makes us women is being born female and attaining adulthood. THAT. IS. ALL.. Womanhood is not a feeling, a projection, a fetish, a ‘gender identity’, a collection of stereotypes or anything else a man decides it might be to benefit him.

Which woman do you “feel like”? There are billions of us in the world and we are all unique. Specifically, which woman are you comparing yourself to when you say you “feel like a woman”? Is it your mum? Princess Diana? Angela Merkel? Simone Biles?

There is no “woman feeling”. No “woman essence”. What links us is our biology, nothing more and nothing less.

How dare you come here accusing us of “transphobia” when you are dripping in sexism and misogyny. How dare you!

Trans women are not women.

They are biological males who feel like they are a woman.

It’s completely their right to present as a woman if they genuinely feel that’s what/who they are supposed to be, but that doesn’t make them female.

Yep no misandry to transmen, the arrow goes one way on this issue

transactivism is an inherently misogynistic movement.

You can fool some of the people some of the time....