To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

And both pathetic and revealing to suggest women shouldn't care about something that affects other women but not them directly. Anyway, where women's rights are affected, it affects all females.

So you’re saying the whole group shouldn’t suffer based on the wants of a tiny minority?…

The word transphobic is completely meaningless now. It’s thrown around at every opportunity and nobody really cares about it anymore. What even are ‘trans rights?’ In my mind actual transphobia would be wishing or causing violence on a trans person or showing outward disgust.

Im a gay woman and I’m sick to death of the whole pride / queer / community nonsense. I don’t need any special gay rights, just human rights. What makes trans people so special that their needs trump everyone else’s

(That was in response to @FunLovinGal sating female athletes etc are part of a tiny and unimportant minority)

You’re trying to deny a whole group’s identity over a few isolated incidents.

No-one is denying that trans people have a trans identity. The debate is about the extent to which that personal belief in on'e own identity should be allowed to influence life for everyone else.

Those prizes/awards and positions are being taken away from women. The women have a genuinely female take on their subject. They understand to their very core why it's important that women are supported and recognised. It doesn't matter which way you slice and dice it, trans women do not have this understanding.

Lily Madigan, in her time as constituency labour party women's officer spent far more time on trans rights than women's rights.

Have you read Torrey Peters novel, shortlisted for the Women's Prize? Have you heard of PhilP/Pippa Bunce, director of Credit Suisse who goes to work half the time as Philip and half as Pippa and was named by the FT as one of the 100 most influential women in business? Which alter ego do you think climbed the greasy pole?

It's a scant 100 years since women obtained the franchise. It's only 50 years ago that women had to resign from their jobs when they found out they were pregnant. It's a recent thing that women didn't have to give up property to their husbands on marriage. Take a look at how many women were shortlisted for the Booker, Pullitzer, Oscar best director etc until the last twenty years or so.

Again, why doesn't it translate into trans men winning prizes etc?

I believe that trans women are women and should be free to live their life as they choose. There are a very limited number of occasions (examples include changing areas, safe areas, rape crisis, prisons, sports and non segregated toilets) where the rights of biological women should take preference.

This.

Lesbian not wanting to sleep with a transwoman? Transphobe!

Woman not wanting to share a cell or jail space with a transwoman? Transphobe!

Woman not wanting to do beauty treatments on transwomen's genital area? Transphobe!

Rape victims not wanting a transwoman to examine them ,be in their groups,act as councelors? Transphobe!

Women not wanting to compete against in sports or literally be battered by transwomen? Transphobes!

Basically saying no to a transwoman regardless of reason,law or trauma is transphobic. No thank you.

I would feel as bad about it as I would sharing a cell with any violent woman.

I am not physically strong so whether they were previously a man or a strong woman, I still wouldn’t be able to defend myself.

Surely all violent prisoners should be treated the same whatever their gender?

That comment is transphobic according to TRAs. If transwomen are women then there's no such thing as biological women's rights. It's a free for all. That's what they want,that's what they campaign for ,that's what they threaten with rape,arson and battery for.

Isn't it fascinating how nobody does male privilege with as much gusto as a certain group within the trans community?
That's right. Trans women. With the male right to trample all over women's rights apparently intact even after all the hormones and scalpels.

This is considered transphobic, by excluding them from women's safe spaces you're not validating their belief that they are women.

It's also fascinating how transmen never get a mention , and even when they do it's an afterthought. It couldn't possibly be because they're actually women,could it?

You don’t think TW have a unique take on a subject?

TW are probably the most marginalised group in society - where is their representation?

Women should understand what it’s like to be second class citizens historically - so why treat TW the same and exclude them from being recognised and rewarded for their skills and achievements?

If not believing that male people's feelings are more important than female people's safety and dignity is transphobic then a better question is why is anyone not transphobic?

Only a tiny minority of adults are child abusers, yet we put measures in place to protect children e.g. in schools and groups, particularly as we know people with a sexual interest in children have historically targeted them in these places. We don't say "Well there will probably only be a few incidents so why bother?"

Do you not appreciate that without measures in place dangerous males could target women through accessing them in women's spaces? Do you not want to protect those women? That's not saying TW are sex offenders. It's saying we don't know who is genuine. How do you explain the large proportion of men identifying as women who are in prison being there for sex offences?

Because they don’t experience the same vitriol! Men aren’t afraid of them in the same way.

There are also far fewer TM than TW.

Why is it women's job to move over for transwomen (a sub group of males), rather than men's job?

Why can't trans people ask for 3rd spaces, their own awards etc? Why do they have to take over women's?

You don’t think TW have a unique take on a subject?

TW are probably the most marginalised group in society - where is their representation?

Women should understand what it’s like to be second class citizens historically - so why treat TW the same and exclude them from being recognised and rewarded for their skills and achievements?*

Because their only achievement is saying "I'm a woman" and then taking away the achievements and recognition from actual women. There's nothing to celebrate there.

Men aren’t afraid of them in the same way.

Why aren't men afraid of them in the same way?

That’s like saying men can’t be teachers as some men are child abusers.

But that’s not the case. Safeguarding doesn’t have to involve excluding a whole group of people. That’s just prejudice.

How are there a large proportion of sex offending men identifying as women in prisons? I looked it up and there are only about 150 TW in prison in total. Even if half of them are sex offenders, how does 75 people in the country give you the right to prejudice against an entire group of people?

There weren't any rapists in womens prisons until transwomen started being placed there. There was always violence, I agree, and that's not acceptable either. But in my view, sexual violence is different from physical violence. A punch or a slap is very different from vaginal, anal or oral rape.

If there are no penises in womens prisons, there is no risk of rape. Prison staff can concentrate on reducing other methods of violence. Did you know that nearly 80% of women in prison in England have suffered head injuries, the vast majority of which originate in domestic violence. Those women do not deserve to be penned up with men yet again.

Because they’re less likely to beat them at sport?!

I never said they don’t matter. I just think your argument is ridiculous.

You clearly don't give a flying about the implications for them , so no they obviously don't matter to you. Why not?

You’re trying to deny a whole group’s identity over a few isolated incidents

I'm not denying anyone's identity. But the fact is you can't change sex. Or are you denying this?