To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

And it's not bigotry to prioritise biological reality in this debate and to work through the consequences for vulnerable women's rights before championing trans rights.

I don't for one second think that all trans women are violent. But I do think that the consequences of letting male bodies into spaces that were protected for females are profound and will have negative impacts on women. Why shouldn't this be discussed?

FunLovinGal, please provide the stats on suicide attempts. These claims have been debunked many times.

And 'there can be no debate on this subject.'?
Sheesh.

Why do you think transwomen are women? Because they say they are? Not good enough, sorry.

Sorry but I can assure you that the days of ‘no debate’ are over. Women are waking up all over the world. Trans women absolutely deserve the same respect as everyone else, they deserve to be free from harm and able to outwardly present as they please but they will never be female.

Trans women are no more violent than the male population as a whole. No more, no less.

Its me who goes on about transwomen trying to get into women's prisons. So, I'll ask you.

Noone is suggesting all transwomen are criminal. However the majority of transwomen in prison are sex offenders. If you went to prison, or your daughter went to prison, how would you feel about being locked in a small cell with a male-bodied person you didn't know, who was very possibly a sex offender?

Its not about all transwomen being sex offenders, its about sex offenders who are transwomen and use that fact to try and get into female prisons with other very vulnerable women.

The only reason anyone would be shouting for no debate is if they know they can't support their views in a debate. Yes debate. Lots of debate.

The fact they feel enough like a woman to completely change their life, expose themselves to bigotry and violence, and alienate themselves from their friends and family in order to live as their true self.

Only for people like you to tell them they can’t be women.

Why not? How does it affect your life? I assume you aren’t a pro athlete or in prison, so why do you care?

I believe trans women are women, trans men are men and self ID is valid.

However, this is not something I decide to get into discussions about on mumsnet which on certain topics is definitely an echo chamber.

I imagine there are more people like me on here.

Only for people like you to tell them they can’t be women.

They aren't, biologically. Once again, what definition are you using? The truth matters.

Why not? How does it affect your life? I assume you aren’t a pro athlete or in prison, so why do you care?

I care about women who are. I also care about scientific fact. Don't you? Why not?

*Only for people like you to tell them they can’t be women.

Why not? How does it affect your life? I assume you aren’t a pro athlete or in prison, so why do you care?*

Wow. Just, wow. You're basically saying we should all care about transwomen but not about pro athletes or vulnerable women in prison. How lovely and inclusive of you.

Women in prison commit suicide as well. Do you care about them?

Exactly this.

It's not just athletes and prisoners.

It's transwomen getting senior roles in women's refuges, as women's officers in unions, being shortlisted for women's literary prizes, winning women's business awards, being shortlisted in arts, business, women of influence awards.

It's odd how many trans women are taking up space like this. Very few trans men are being feted in the same way. I wonder why?.........

Apparently 20 percent of women prisoners are there for violent crimes - that will make up a much larger quantity of the population than violent transwomen.

So, given that, who are you more likely to be attacked by in prison?

But you’re just using these groups of women as an excuse for transphobia

@FunLovinGal
Who do transwomen currently get physically attacked by? Men or women?

If transwomen have high suicide rates, wouldn't it rather show that transitioning doesn't actually solve whatever issues they have?

Can you please state how many transwomen have been murdered in the UK in say the last 3 years, and how many actual women?

Why do you not care about the integrity of women's sport?

But you’re just using these groups of women as an excuse for transphobia

Why don't these women matter to you?

So what if they win awards etc - why is that a bad thing? They deserve to be rewarded for their talent as much as anyone else.

You can’t pretend there is a male biological advantage to being a good writer or artist or whatever

Yes, I am "transphobic " about transwomen trying to get into women's prisons, because I believe that the rights of the vulnerable women inside those prisons (about 3k of them at the last count) outweigh the wishes of the transwomen who think they should be held there. You didn't answer my question about cell sharing.

So you admit these groups of women are being oppressed but you don’t give a fuck. That’s not woke, @FunLovinGal , that’s misogyny.

I've read some - but not all - of this thread. I believe that transwomen are transwomen, not women. I think that transgender people should be treated with respect and left along but not at the expense of putting others at risk.

Women make up just over half the population while I understand that transgender people make up around 0.05% (I am happy to be corrected if that is wrong). It’s a bit weird to have so much debate over such a tiny proportion of the overall population.

I think that part of the problem is the way that people (on both sides) don’t really debate - they shout at each other on the internet. A thread that was deleted had someone come on to call all those on it “transphobes”. My experience is that women, on the whole, don’t really respond to such aggression.

It may be that TRAs are allies to women but the way that they come across doesn’t make me think so. Are they able to be interested in the lives of ordinary women? Or can they only think about transwomen? Getting the backs up of ordinary women isn’t great for transwomen.

Using slurs like “TERF” or “Transphobic” isn’t helpful.

It’s got to the point where the word “transphobic” doesn’t really mean very much to me. Is it bad? How bad is it?

I don’t believe that misgendering someone is actual violence but I do think it is impolite. If someone wants to be called “she” / “her”, I will do so.

@FunLovinGal would it be ok with you if I identified as BAME and applied for awards and scholarships? Or identified as disabled and joined the paralympics?

If you believe transwomen are women, why are you unsure whether they belong in women's shelters? Is it because you think they are a different type of woman? That not all women are equal? It sounds transphobic to me, can you explain more?

How much do they have to change their life though, because it can be as simple as saying you're a woman. Or is there a certain amount of change they must make? Because that would be quite a trashphobic thing to say.

There have been more than a couple of incidents of males suddenly identifying as women once caught for their crimes whilst doing nothing more than simply stating they are trans.

I never said they don’t matter. I just think your argument is ridiculous.

You’re trying to deny a whole group’s identity over a few isolated incidents.

The women affected by those incidents do matter, but they are the victims of a tiny minority - so imposing restrictions on all TW suggests you think they are all the same.

I can think of some other types of prejudices where do exactly the same thing… this is no different.

You can’t pretend there is a male biological advantage to being a good writer or artist or whatever

And yet, historically, until the latter half of the 20th century, the vast majority of very successful writers, artists and composers were male. I agree there is unlikely to be a real biological advantage for males in these fields, so we are left to conclude that society confers an advantage on males by virtue of patriarchal attitudes.

Female-only awards were set up to redress this imbalance. If males can be eligible for awards or opportunities that were intended to be female-only, that does tend to negate their original purpose.