To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

Which areas of the brain conduct processes that result in being trans?

And feelings are brain processes - specifically, activity within the limbic system that generates mental states and accompanying behavioural and physiological responses.

(Some of us do work in medicine or science, you know.)

www.transgendertrend.com/brain-research/

No credible studies ever done prove any difference between trans brains and other brains. The specimens used were from males who had been on hormone treatment.

Trans women are men. This is a biological fact. XX and XY chromosomes cannot be altered or argued.
It doesn’t matter what someone feels. Individuals can call themselves what they want, dress how they want, love who they want. I don’t care how people want to live their life. However a belief or self identity does not change the biological fact males and females are inherently different and all the surgery, medication and therapy will never change that.
To state facts and want to protect women rights to safe spaces and equality in competitive sport is not trans phobic. Women are loosing their rights, their identities and their opportunities to men. This just isn’t fair.

Cath57 do you mean gender or sex. Feels in the brain don't alter your biological sex. Gender is tbh, bollocks. There are many comprehensive lists of genders. There appears to be no cohesive answer as to how many genders there are. I've just read some tosh describing what it means to be gender non-conforming. I kid you not:

'It could be something as minute as an Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB) person wearing nail polish, Marsh explains. That could be considered gender non-conforming, since nail polish is typically attributed to female-presenting people in our society.'

So it does come down to the frocks and the nail polish.

We are either male or female, men or women (with a tiny number of people who have DSD, which manifests physically), and the rest is utterly important. How we present ourselves to the world, as long as we're not harming anyone with our choices, doesn't change our sex. Ha ving surgery, taking hormones, while causing substantial physical damage to an individual, doesn't change our sex.

Women are STILL having to fight for equalities in every single aspect of our lives. Following the news from the US yesterday this can be in no doubt. Yet we're still expected to shunt out the way to accommodate male people presenting as women.

No thank you.

Let's cut to the chase Cath. Do you hand on heart believe that someone with a penis should be housed in prison cells with females? Should they be in women's shelters alongside vulnerable females? Should they be in groups for femalee who have been raped? Should they be in changing rooms that don't have cubicles with girls? What happens to the rights of females in those situations?

Word salad!

Gender has nothing to do with genitalia, which indicate your sex.

I've never had my brain scanned. How do I know whether I am a woman or not? What does a woman's brain look like and how is it different to a man's brain? If I like beer and football, does that make me a man?

I would LOVE for there to be a perfect brain scan test to check if people are trans. It would be AWESOME. Do you have that research Cath57? Think about how amazing it would be. All the males who say they are women can pop off for an MRI and we can see who is really trans and who isn’t.

That 41% of trans prisoners who are sex offenders? Scan them!

The ones claiming to be lesbians? Scan them!

The children who are being sterilised and rendered sexually dysfunctional by puberty blockers and cross sex hormones? Scan them first before we send them down such an irreversible path!

Let’s sort the real trans from the pretenders. Let’s see the rush to form a queue by all the males who say they’re trans, I’m sure the likes of Danielle Moscato will be at the front of the queue.

So let’s see this research then.

(Of course, in reality, this is bullshit. Brain scans will only ever reveal that features thought to exist in just one sex can exist in another sex, because a person’s sex is what it is from conception, and even if there’s a perfect test I can guarantee there will be instant attempts to discredit it from people who say they are trans because they already fight among themselves about what true trans means.)

I got that.

Im saying I don't agree there are some disgusting posts and when they do appear the must be reported.

This thread however is pretty straight forward and general in terms of peoples POV.

Put a picture of a woman there and do the same but replace the word woman with men.

I bet would be up in arms to have that female suggesting it's bigoted to think they are any less of a man.

Difficulties only arise when a person buys into the idea that, because their personality is at odds with the society's gendered expectations of their sex, it is their sex that is wrong rather than the societal expectations.

Exactly.

I support trans right up until they affect women's rights. Women's rights will ALWAYS come first for me. And Trans women are trans women.

Cath57

There is no such thing as a gendered brain. The one study which is regularly sited as evidence by TRA's does not reach the conclusion TRA's claim it does. It did not take sexual orientation or exposure to female hormones into account.

www.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/meet-the-neuroscientist-shattering-the-myth-of-the-gendered-brain-gina-rippon

Honestly, every thread about this ends up with the exact same predictable arguments from the TRA side.

TW are women because they say they are
Women is anyone who says they are a woman
Trans people have the brain of their preferred sex
What about "intersex" people, that PROVES that sex is not binary, and there is somehow a third sex
There is no biological definition of "woman"
Some woman cannot get pregnant, that means that there is no such thing as "woman" (offensive - it's suggesting that infertile women are the same as men)
Denying trans women "rights" is the same as denying black people their rights

It just goes around and around.

Difficulties only arise when a person buys into the idea that, because their personality is at odds with the society's gendered expectations of their sex, it is their sex that is wrong rather than the societal expectations.

Exactly this. Neatly summed up!

I don’t think transwomen are women. I support their rights to live peacefully, dress how they wish etc but I don’t believe humans can change sex so they are not women if they were born male.

I don’t think that is a transphobic stance to take. I don’t want trans people to be harassed, bullied, victimised etc but equally I can’t be forced to partake in an ideology I don’t believe in and do, say and accept things that make me feel uncomfortable just to “be kind”

They're not women though. A female is a woman, she has female reproductive organs.

Transwomen aren't women. We all know what a woman is. We've known since humans have existed. The fact that for the past 2 minutes (in human history terms) a few people have decided they want to change the definition of 'women' doesn't change that, I'm afraid. A definition which states that 'a thing is anything that thinks it is that thing' is meaningless nonsense and isn't actuallya definition. I could decide I was a giraffe, because I'd decided that some giraffes can have 2 legs, a short neck, opposable thumbs and be able to speak etc. Doesn't mean it would be true.

Here’s a thought experiment for you OP,
Imagine you could alter all the porn sites in the world , and you changed all the images of womens bodies to trans womens bodies - what would be the reaction of all the heterosexual men in the world ? Would they notice a difference if TWare W?

Can someone please explain to me why wanting to change your body through drastic surgery to fit a gender stereotype isn't a huge mental health problem and should be addressed as such. People should have therapy to accept their bodies and express their personality as they wish to, doing those things that may not for gender stereotypes.

The widespread acceptance of this not being a mental health issue frightens me, surgery is never going to be the answer for people unhappy with themselves. These people deserve put respect, help, therapy, no judgements and should be supported to be who they are..... But drastic surgery does not alter DNA.

This is written clumsily, I'm aware of that. I hope what I'm trying to say is taken in the vein I wanted.

it is, i agree

and of course you can not have a gender…im honestly surprised that Tandora came out with that

Trans women are male, but I’m not anti-trans so the voting thingy is a bit rubbish.

Transwomen are women! There can be no debate on this subject.

As women they deserve the same rights as any other woman and access to the same spaces and support.

The fact so many people on this thread are going on about transwomen in prison suggests you think they are all criminals!

Do you know how many transwomen are violently attacked each year, and how many attempt suicide? Let me tell you - it’s a lot!

It’s just so tragic, and all this bigotry does nothing to help them.

Transwomen are women! There can be no debate on this subject.

You're not getting away with no debate. Sorry. What definition of women do you subscribe to?

There can be no debate on this subject

i think there can be