To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

This with brass knobs on. I've still yet to see a single even attempt to respond to the question 'we'll tell me why a man who 'feels' he's a woman is a woman is any different to an anorexic person thinking they're fat (and everyone accepts that's a mental health condition) or a white person 'feeling' that they're black (and everyone acknowledges without question that that is offensive to black people and yet apparently men thinking they're women is not offensive to us, somehow WE'RE the ones who are wrong? Come the fuck on).

@itsgettingweird sorry I don't think I was clear, it wasn't this post that I was disgusted with x

Here is Danielle muscato - Danielle claims to be a woman. Please tell us OP how we tell the difference between Danielle & a man

Don't these threads usually get shunted off to the Feminist & Gender section? I'm curious why this one is different.

No acquired skills. That's the point.

Someone asked why, if a person can call themselves a woman, why then a person couldn't call themselves an opera singer (when they're not an opera singer). My point is that 'being' an opera singer is different to 'being' a woman. An opera singer will need to acquire skills to be able to sing opera. Eventually other people may well identify her as 'Hester, the opera singer', but it would ultimately be up to Hester if she identifies as 'an opera singer' or as a woman who can sing opera.

but it would ultimately be up to Hester if she identifies as 'an opera singer' or as a woman who can sing opera.

If Hester, sounding like a squawking bird, tells people's she's an opera singer, they'd conclude she's delusional.

So why would we hold Hester to standards of truth in this instance, but be expected to agree that Danielle muscato (above) is a woman?

So if no "acquired" element is necessary, if they just "are" a woman, why does a transwoman need to modify their body?

It's the difference between brain and genitalia. Sorry, I thought that had already been covered earlier in the thread.

Defining 'woman' as a feeling doesn't really work in law does it? We need accurate definitions. Do you treat TW as women in all circumstances?

Are TW female?

Ok ditch the opera singer

It's like being human or a cat

It's the difference between brain and genitalia.

Wgats the difference between a male/female brain that isn't attributable to biological sex?

Perfectly summed up.

And just to add, the 'trabsohobic' label makes me so sad and weary. Just because the people here are intelligent and discerning enough to be able to debate a very complex issue, doesn't mean there is any hate and prejudice. It's just a word thrown out to silence the eloquent points that are raised.

Just googled this person. It does make me wonder what Danielle thinks being a woman is, or why it’s so important to her to identify as a woman while maintaining a traditionally masculine appearance.

Of course, women can be women and have stereotypically masculine traits and interests, and vice versa.

However, it does make me wonder what the point is in changing your gender identity to female when you are still essentially passing as male?

I actually do know a trans woman who is a ‘tom boy’ (excuse the expression), doesn’t wear makeup etc, but at first glance you’d still say ‘woman’ - just not a ‘girly’ one. So there is a spectrum, but this seems at the extreme end.

Yet just for recognising this, it looks like I would be called a bigot or transphobic by Danielle’s standards.

Of course transwomen aren't women. How could they be? No one really believes that.

There's been research into brain and gender identity which challenges the current paradigm that gender is determined by genitalia present at birth.

There's been research into brain and gender identity which challenges the current paradigm that gender is determined by genitalia present at birth.

Are you going to share it?

Transwomen are women.

So you are saying that a transwoman feels that their genitalia isn't congruent with their brain?

Why is it necessary to change the genitalia to address that mismatch? Why not change the brain (i.e. change the person's feelings about their own body?)

Changing the brain (e.g. with therapy) doesn't remove someone's sexual function and fertility and put them at risk of complications of cross-sex hormones.

Nope

transwomen are transwomen

Genuine question @StolenCookie - if you believe people are whatever they believe they are/identify as - how do you feel about people like Rachel dolezal? How is being white and identifying as black different to being a man and identifying as a woman?

It is about the structure of the brain and how the brain conducts some processes. This isn't about changing 'feelings' through therapy. @Awiltu

This. Helpful video

So it's possible to scan a brain and determine who's a man and who's a woman?

Why do people who don't do science claim to be experts in science? It's like fucking anti vaxxers.

That wouldn't be surprising. "Gender" is just personality. Personality has (or should have) nothing to do with genitals.

Difficulties only arise when a person buys into the idea that, because their personality is at odds with the society's gendered expectations of their sex, it is their sex that is wrong rather than the societal expectations.

It is about the structure of the brain and how the brain conducts some processes. This isn't about changing 'feelings' through therapy.

Tell us more about these Brain processes @Cath57