To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

Probably not as still deciding on what makes a woman a woman.

I whole heartedly agree with you

Well perhaps you can help us with the 'what defines a woman' question that the OP struggles with?

I know my entire family would drop down dead at this so I tend to keep my mouth shut when the issue is mentioned but I've always believed trans women are women. Even years ago in the days before it developed into such a debated hot topic we see today. To me, it's obvious. Trans women are women. But I have to accept that my view isn't the norm.
As a society, we have to sort out the issue of women's rights and how women are protected. I think that will be achieved by eliminating the patriarchy rather than by arguing that trans women are not women.

To me, it's obvious. Trans women are women.

And what definition are you using here?

But how? Why?

I'd like to be lots of things but I know I'm not. If I said I'm a cat, or I'm an opera singer, I'd be patted on the head and eyes would roll.

No definition. I feel myself to be a woman. I would never identify as male because I feel myself to be a woman. Identifying as male is something that has never crossed my mind. Being a woman is as natural to me as waking up in the morning, I just don't need to think about it.

Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women

No, because they are not. They are people with male bodies who want to live life like a woman.

And transphobia isn't a thing. A phobia is an irrational fear of something. I am not afraid of transpeople, and the irrationality doesn't come into it.

I think one can want to be an opera singer but that is very different to feeling being an opera singer. A person with a strong desire to be an opera singer will presumably seek out that career and practice until it is in their bones. They get up every day and practice and live that life. Then they make it big and people say 'oh, that's Hester the opera singer'. Hester may well identify herself as an opera singer, or she may simply think of herself as a person who sings opera. It's up to Hester and how she feels about her identity.

No definition. I feel myself to be a woman.

Is there anything else that 'doesn't have a definition' in this way? How do words have any meaning for you?

if a white person 'feels themselves' to be black and identifies as such, is that also ok in your eyes?

I must have missed the biology lesson where woman are born with penises? Regardless of whether they choose to keep it or not?

People can dress and do as they please, but when it impacts on our rights as biological women, then I have an issue with it.

A person with a strong desire to be an opera singer will presumably seek out that career and practice until it is in their bones.

That alone won't make them an opera singer though. They may never be good enough. If they aren't singing opera in opera houses, they ... aren't an opera singer.

Isn't that blindingly obvious?

Cath57, but to be, or want to be an opera singer requires you to sing opera, even if you're not particularly good at it.

What do you have to do to be a woman? Dress in a frock and wear lipstick? I fail on those counts. I don't have to do anything to be a woman. I just am.

The strawman skin colour card always pops up doesn't it?! What is this obsession with skin colour?!

Exactly. You just are. And that is exactly how trans people feel. They just 'are'.

The strawman skin colour card always pops up doesn't it?

Its not even remotely a straw man, it's exactly the same principle.

If all it takes is to 'feel inside' you're a woman, why wouldn't that apply to anything else? Including race.

Why would being male/female be the only thing 'feelings' alone determine? What's the justification for that?

The problem with your voting choices is that they don't represent opposing views on the same question.

No, trans women are not biological women. They are men who wish to present and live as women to resolve dysphoric feelings.

Yes, I and indeed most people including mumsnetters support trans rights and have nothing but sympathy and a "live and let live" attitude. However the point where trans rights cause harm to women's rights they are unreasonable.

^The problem with your voting choices is that they don't represent opposing views on the same question.*

The op knows this, they're just shit stirring.

If trans women "just are" women, why do they need all the hormones and surgery to take away the physical reality of what they were just born as?
If they don't go in for all that, then in reality what they are is a man who prefers dresses and lipstick IE. They are more comfortable with female stereotypes than male stereotypes.

There are some posts I'm disgusted with. Do what we all do and report.

But you can't be disgusted with most here as the OP has actually said she has the same stance is most.

Trans woman should access spaces for biological females - especially ones that make them vulnerable.

She just ask is thinks they are woman at the same time. But yet calls them trans woman!

I support trans people in that I recognise it must be an awful feeling to believe you are in the body. I do not support the agenda that women have to make allowances for them though by giving up their spaces. I do not believe trans females should be allowed to compete in women's sports where their genetic make up gives them a clear advantage. I do not believe they should be in women's prisons or domestic shelters. It's the infringement of the right of natural born females that I dislike. That and the terminology to describe women born female, I'm not a cis woman I'm just a woman.

Exactly. You just are. And that is exactly how trans people feel. They just 'are'.

Have you spoken to many trans people?

The trans woman I know says that's the issue. She isn't 'just' a woman. She is a biological male and doesn't feel like one so has to do lots daily to present as a woman.

That's what so many trans people struggle. Because they don't feel they are who they are and have to put in effort to be that person. To present as that person to the outside world.

Woman that say they feel a woman and accept trans woman males do too actually don't know what it's like to feel like a woman. You just know you are one and feel it because it's what you know you are.

I can't say I feel like a woman. What is that? What does that mean. I just am one and therefore I just be.

The skin colour question, the anorexia question, the adult person who presents as a small child or baby - just the same. An anorexic thinks they are fat, despite much evidence to the contrary.

Rachel Dolezal believed herself to be black despite the fact that she isn't.

Some adults like to dress and act as babies and toddlers, feel they are babies and toddlers.

What is the difference between these instances and some transwomen thinking they are women?

There is no straw man argument here, yet with some of these examples we realise that there is a problem - an anorexic starving themselves to death because they feel they're too fat, Dolezal claiming to be something she's not. Why is it OK to not accept these two examples, but be expected to accept TWAW.

And we still haven't had a reasonable explanation of what it feels like to be a woman. It's not a 'feeling' that you can put on and take off. Natal women are stuck with it.

Gender identity is a completely ridiculous concept. If we took it to its logical conclusion there'd probably be over 6 billion gender identities on the planet.

Cath57 are TW female?

I feel like this inside and I'm increasingly wanting to be like this on the outside too.

I know full well this is complete and absolute utter bollocks but my workplace is very 'be kind and be an ally' etc etc and gosh shock horror no one would DREAM of uttering something 'transphobic' so I don't even want to join any of their 'women's' events / gender equality groups or anything or ever get involved in their IWD events despite the fact I would love to do stuff to promote WOMEN in my workplace help advance their careers as the partners in my firm are overwhelmingly men, but I just KNOW that this stuff would come up and I'd have to bite my tongue and subordinate any discrimination I may have ever felt at any point in my life as a woman and 'check my privilege' and police my language in deference to the alter of inclusivity, so I just ignore it. I'm strongly feminist and yet feel like I can't get involved in any of the supposedly feminist groups or events at work.

Well I'm increasingly thinking fuck it. We tried being nice, and patiently and rationally explaining over and over again with science and facts WHY we know that trans women are not women and that whilst we don't have a problem with trans people living their lives how they want to PROVIDING that it doesn't impact women's rights but at that point we have a problem....patiently and politely asking these nut jobs over and over again 'ok well if you think TWAW then please for the love of god tell me what YOUR definition of woman is, because I still ascribe to the 'adult human female one'', but fuck it. I'm absolutely sick of pandering to this BS.

Opera singing is an acquired skill. Without the right natural aptitude, which is based on anatomical and physiological characteristics, acquisition of that skill will fail.

The point about being female is that there is no "acquired" element. Female bodies just are just naturally anatomically and physiologically female (even when there disorders of that anatomy or physiology are present). A female has a female body even if she never learns to style her hair, apply makeup or wear feminine clothes.

Following on from your opera singer analogy, what "skill" do you think transwomen have acquired that makes them women?